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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:09 am
  

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Mandalorian wrote:
I both disagree and agree with the art. Yes some of the D20 books do have alot of art and some of it imho is pretty bad but in most cases it's tastefully done and never overshadows the text. For the price they are charging for some of the D20 books there better be more than just a minimal amount of art.


Core books normally have good art, it is the stuff produced by other companies that gets rather...poor...in my opinion.


Mandalorian wrote:
At the very least most of the D20 art is true to what a pc can do. The artwork in Palladium imo is very misleading when it comes to what the mages and psionic characters can do. The spells and psychic abilites are nowhere near as powerful as they appear in the art. The rest pretty much is true to what you can do.


Hrm...most D20 art I can think of doesn't have anything happening to begin with; normally just portraits of an individual and not large action scenes. Inaccurate or not, I wouldn't trade the large action scenes Palladium books have given me over the years for any alternative.

Mandalorian wrote:
Your kidding about the layout right. sorry as much as I like reading Palladium books the layout imo is poor. Chapters continue into other chapters material spread out through out the book when it should be in one spot. An example in RUE the optional dragon hand to hand table. That should have been in the Dragon RCC section not at the end of the book. Not to mention the constant copy and paste errors.


While I'm not saying Palladium does a better job, I'm not a big fan of the D20 layout, especially their Player's Guide. A logical layout? Probably, but I found it to be a clunky process of page flipping and chapter jumping.

Mandalorian wrote:
As for Hardcovers I love them too but agree that it can get expensive. Though it's not a trend in D20 only. Go to your nearest gaming store and check out other hardcover rps besides White Wolf and D20. Minimum price for a hardcover rpg today 30-40$ at most 45$ and up. It's a trend that will stay in the gaming industry as long as gamers are willing to pay the prices.


Certainly feels like it has exploded since D20 hit though - like everything has to be hardcover now, or it just isn't important enough for retailers to order it.


Mandalorian wrote:
I do not know what games you play in but three Straight D20 and three straight ones are a statistically impossibility. I have been gaming for 10 or more years and have come across that once. Nor do you "auto kill" whatever you are fighting unless you are playing a high level game. Nor do you automatically die unless you fail a fortitude save toward a dc of 15. And that happens only when someone does 50 straight points of damage.


You should try gaming with my group then. Off the top of my head, in just the last few years of gaming I can think of one night where the triple 20 happened on two separate occasions, and it happens off and on all the time -- and on two separate nights (we mix in the rolemaster open ended and crit charts) I can remember a roll of 667 and one of over 800 by a player and a GM respectively, made in front of the group both time. (for those who don't know the open ended rule, basically every time you roll a 97-00 on a d100, you keep on rolling till you don't roll a 97-100 again). Beyond extreme cases such as that, crits are the norm rather than the aberration for 3 of the gamers in the group. Sadly I have none of this luck, but it certainly does happen. Maybe that's why you never see it, 'cause I always do :)


Mandalorian wrote:
As for not having an active dodge or parry roll I can agree that it is a flaw but a very minor one. Not every game system has it so it's not unique to D20 and at the same time who cares. When I play D20 I do not worry about or care that I cannot do certain things that the Palladium system allows me to do and vice versa. If I would stick with this line of thinking i would never try any other rpgs.


Josh seems to care; and it bugs me too actually. We all take parts of things we like and dislike from all the rpg's we've played, and the AC system of D20 is one of my least favorite parts of it.


Mandalorian wrote:
And no it does not encourage rollplaying vs roleplaying. That depends on the style of game and the gm running it. I could say the something applies to some of Palladiums games too.


Stuff happens, even to the best of characters. If you all are really into your story, you'll fudge the rule or allow for a res or something. If you're hard core about the rules over fun, then that's life - but most games have some form of death attack in them; heck, Rolemaster is far more unforgiving than D20 when it comes to that. If a rule is messing up your fun, leave it out. (that was more to Josh, but his quotes didn't get left for me to work with easily :) )



Mandalorian wrote:
The combat system I agree with you . While it allows you to do more it's spread all over the place and the rules for it contradict each other. So running it can become a chore.


the differences in the combat system are one of the biggest reasons I don't think I'd like a Palladium D20.

Mandalorian wrote:
Confinement of stats is not a problem of the system but imo poor design of the book and sometimes you do not need more than stats for a given race. Unless the npc is important to the story.


Failing on the writer right there - if you're going to put it into a book, put some thought into it. Unless it is a Nilbog, someone is bound to love it and want to use it - so make it so they really can.

Mandalorian wrote:
Palladium does give more bang for the book...most of the time.


Pretty much all of the time if that's amended to 'bang for the book for the buck' but yes, D20 has done some nice books, even if they're a touch pricey.

Mandalorian wrote:
As for conversions in the books I would not mind it nor I am clamoring to see it either. in any case imo it would be mostly positive because it would get some ex-palladium players back into the fold and make more money for Palladium.


The biggest reason I wouldn't want a D20 Palladium is the adaption of feats into the Palladium world - the classes just aren't built properly for them in my eyes.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:39 am
  

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Todd Yoho wrote:
As someone who has played both, I can say with authority that Palladium is a good system. D20 is a good system. That doesn't mean that they should be combined. These debates have gone on and on and on and on and on and on and on for years now. Alex has pretty much dropped the final word on the issue of Palladium and D20, and everything else is circular hot air. I think I remember reading these same arguments years ago on this and every other messageboard.

There are better, more meaningful things to argue about. Like how Arzno is going to suck and Hades should be censored because Hades is a naughty word.

And Zachary, I love your sig link. :)


lol...thanks. I've received a lot of comments on it. And gosh, Hades is naughty! And yes, Arzno is going to the suckiest greatest book ever. :)

I, too, really have no issue with D20; I've played it before and fully expect I'll play it again. That said, I just see the two as completely incompatible-they really have developed almost as two different gaming philosophies. And, as countless folks have said, it's just not going to happen.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:52 am
  

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For those who think d20 can't handle a Palladium conversion: bull.

Just because you haven't yet seen someone do it properly doesn't mean it can't be done. Rifts thrives based on its creative content more than its rules, otherwise all other games using the megaversal rules would have comparable sales figures. And, considering there are some pretty great d20 Modern settings out there where the characters don't all blend into one (as one poster claimed), it's rather obvious such a conversion can be done. Whether or not that's your cup of tea is purely subjective, but that it COULD be done and done well is an objective fact.

Personally though, were I to be behind such a conversion, I'd opt for a more streamlined version of d20. Something like BESM d20 or M&M Superlink, both of which allow for great levels of customization, would be ideal, IMHO. I think Superlink kicks much booty and could do great things with Rifts.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 pm
  

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punkrawkdrums wrote:
as far as active defense,it IS an option for D20,with out adding anymore work.i do remember Josh once stating that he didn't like for it to be "optional",sounding as if you had to be told to do it,but then you turn around and tout a game where half of the rules are house rules....hmmmm.


And you remember incorrectly.

I never said such a thing about me not liking it being optional.

You shouldn't put words in peoples' mouths.

~ Josh

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:38 pm
  

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Steve Conan Trustrum wrote:
For those who think d20 can't handle a Palladium conversion: bull.

Just because you haven't yet seen someone do it properly doesn't mean it can't be done. Rifts thrives based on its creative content more than its rules, otherwise all other games using the megaversal rules would have comparable sales figures. And, considering there are some pretty great d20 Modern settings out there where the characters don't all blend into one (as one poster claimed), it's rather obvious such a conversion can be done. Whether or not that's your cup of tea is purely subjective, but that it COULD be done and done well is an objective fact.

Personally though, were I to be behind such a conversion, I'd opt for a more streamlined version of d20. Something like BESM d20 or M&M Superlink, both of which allow for great levels of customization, would be ideal, IMHO. I think Superlink kicks much booty and could do great things with Rifts.


I'm one of them, but I don't think it would still hold the magic of Rifts if done D20 wise. Like I said, if I could see it done, I wouldn't mind/care. But having tried to do it, even from the main book, I came across a great deal of trouble trying to make juicers and Glitterboys even cyberknights. I've tried looking for online (P2P and just web) for converstions, and any I found were either poorly done or many OCC's just didn't have the feel one wanted with them.

I've played D20. Modern/BESM, Tristat, D&D, vampire/WW games, and think all have their good and bad points.

I don't think it could be done right. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would probably require a good amount of time and effort because if they did do a d20 conversion, i'd want it done right. So that I was still playing "Rifts".

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:02 pm
  

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Dark Brandon wrote:
I'm one of them, but I don't think it would still hold the magic of Rifts if done D20 wise. Like I said, if I could see it done, I wouldn't mind/care. But having tried to do it, even from the main book, I came across a great deal of trouble trying to make juicers and Glitterboys even cyberknights. I've tried looking for online (P2P and just web) for converstions, and any I found were either poorly done or many OCC's just didn't have the feel one wanted with them.

I've played D20. Modern/BESM, Tristat, D&D, vampire/WW games, and think all have their good and bad points.

I don't think it could be done right. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would probably require a good amount of time and effort because if they did do a d20 conversion, i'd want it done right. So that I was still playing "Rifts".
Rifts doesn't use point buy. D20 doesn't use point buy.

Rifts uses classes with arbitrary abilities. D20 uses classes with arbitrary abilities.

ANYTHING you make in Rifts you can convert into d20, so long as you set a foundation for conversion (such as stat and hitpoint thresholds from one game to the next.) If you use point-buy systems, things get tricker because you then face objective limits while trying to remain true to the original, subjective material, but the trade off is you see a mechanical explanation on how things are done and that makes future conversions all that much easier. Of course, the fact that d20 attempts to keep much of its material somewhat balanced at comparable levels while you certainly run into a power disparity in Rifts means a straight conversion isn't going to happen; for example, d20 characters gain feats every 3 levels, regardless of class, whereas each OCC gets skills at levels that vary from other OCCs--progression is far less linear in Rifts, which makes a proper conversion a lot trickier.

Rifts and d20 have a lot of mechanics that are contextually similar, which provides a good framework of reference. If I can convert d20 into Unisystem, two incredibly different systems, it's certainly possible for someone to make a workable Rifts <--> d20 conversion.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:19 pm
  

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Steve Conan Trustrum wrote:
Dark Brandon wrote:
I'm one of them, but I don't think it would still hold the magic of Rifts if done D20 wise. Like I said, if I could see it done, I wouldn't mind/care. But having tried to do it, even from the main book, I came across a great deal of trouble trying to make juicers and Glitterboys even cyberknights. I've tried looking for online (P2P and just web) for converstions, and any I found were either poorly done or many OCC's just didn't have the feel one wanted with them.

I've played D20. Modern/BESM, Tristat, D&D, vampire/WW games, and think all have their good and bad points.

I don't think it could be done right. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would probably require a good amount of time and effort because if they did do a d20 conversion, i'd want it done right. So that I was still playing "Rifts".
Rifts doesn't use point buy. D20 doesn't use point buy.

Rifts uses classes with arbitrary abilities. D20 uses classes with arbitrary abilities.


Yeah, I know, I was just stating that I've played and I enjoy all the systems of games.

Quote:
ANYTHING you make in Rifts you can convert into d20, so long as you set a foundation for conversion (such as stat and hitpoint thresholds from one game to the next.) If you use point-buy systems, things get tricker because you then face objective limits while trying to remain true to the original, subjective material, but the trade off is you see a mechanical explanation on how things are done and that makes future conversions all that much easier. Of course, the fact that d20 attempts to keep much of its material somewhat balanced at comparable levels while you certainly run into a power disparity in Rifts means a straight conversion isn't going to happen; for example, d20 characters gain feats every 3 levels, regardless of class, whereas each OCC gets skills at levels that vary from other OCCs--progression is far less linear in Rifts, which makes a proper conversion a lot trickier.

Rifts and d20 have a lot of mechanics that are contextually similar, which provides a good framework of reference. If I can convert d20 into Unisystem, two incredibly different systems, it's certainly possible for someone to make a workable Rifts <--> d20 conversion.


Possible for someone. of course. I never said it was impossible. I just doubt that it could be done in such a way that would keep rifts "rifts". If someone could do it and do it right, I'd be pleasently surprised, but it wouldn't be shocking. Does that make sense?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:43 pm
  

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Dark Brandon wrote:
Yeah, I know, I was just stating that I've played and I enjoy all the systems of games.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. My points were just to expand on that to show how the transition could be easier than may appear.

Quote:
Possible for someone. of course. I never said it was impossible. I just doubt that it could be done in such a way that would keep rifts "rifts". If someone could do it and do it right, I'd be pleasently surprised, but it wouldn't be shocking. Does that make sense?

Again, didn't mean to imply I was contradicting you. I was pointing out where many of the stumbling blocks would be and noting to others who posted in this thread (not yourself) that it is indeed possible. As I said, I think the key to keeping the Rifts atmosphere is using a more open version of d20, like Superlink or BESM d20. Of course, the problem regarding feats and the like that's been pointed out can be resolved by modifying the feats to suit the setting. Such a conversion wouldn't be the first product to do so.

Personally, I think many of the problems people have with MDC in Rifts, especially with regards to creatures and mecha, would be resolved with damage reduction and energy resistance in d20 because it would represent the hard to kill aspect the author wants without only having MDC to work with to represent that design concept.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:57 pm
  

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Steve Conan Trustrum wrote:
Dark Brandon wrote:
Yeah, I know, I was just stating that I've played and I enjoy all the systems of games.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. My points were just to expand on that to show how the transition could be easier than may appear.

Quote:
Possible for someone. of course. I never said it was impossible. I just doubt that it could be done in such a way that would keep rifts "rifts". If someone could do it and do it right, I'd be pleasently surprised, but it wouldn't be shocking. Does that make sense?

Again, didn't mean to imply I was contradicting you. I was pointing out where many of the stumbling blocks would be and noting to others who posted in this thread (not yourself) that it is indeed possible. As I said, I think the key to keeping the Rifts atmosphere is using a more open version of d20, like Superlink or BESM d20. Of course, the problem regarding feats and the like that's been pointed out can be resolved by modifying the feats to suit the setting. Such a conversion wouldn't be the first product to do so.

Personally, I think many of the problems people have with MDC in Rifts, especially with regards to creatures and mecha, would be resolved with damage reduction and energy resistance in d20 because it would represent the hard to kill aspect the author wants without only having MDC to work with to represent that design concept.


Cool. Agreed.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:23 pm
  

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Marrowlight wrote:
Core books normally have good art, it is the stuff produced by other companies that gets rather...poor...in my opinion.


I cannot disagree with you on that though I would say it's a 50/50 split.

Marrowlight wrote:
Hrm...most D20 art I can think of doesn't have anything happening to begin with; normally just portraits of an individual and not large action scenes. Inaccurate or not, I wouldn't trade the large action scenes Palladium books have given me over the years for any alternative.


I should have been more clear. Most of the artwork for the spell/psychic effects matches what can be done with the spell. Most of the scenes with mages/psychics look cool but imo do not match what the spell/psychic ability can do can do. A lot of times it's more for a coolness factor and wow factor.

Which I can appreciate and like though I sometimes wish the art would reflect what is written for mages and psychics. Though i will say that we are both in agreement for keeping the large action scences. i would not trade them either.

Marrowlight wrote:
While I'm not saying Palladium does a better job, I'm not a big fan of the D20 layout, especially their Player's Guide. A logical layout? Probably, but I found it to be a clunky process of page flipping and chapter jumping.


On this point I still disagree with you but will admit that at the same time I have been spoiled with the better production values of Wotc and WW.

Like i said it is improving though and find most of the books more of an enjoyable read than some Wotc books i have read.


Marrowlight wrote:
Certainly feels like it has exploded since D20 hit though - like everything has to be hardcover now, or it just isn't important enough for retailers to order it.


I think it's going to stay this way for as long as fans are willing to pay for them.

Marrowlight wrote:
You should try gaming with my group then. Off the top of my head, in just the last few years of gaming I can think of one night where the triple 20 happened on two separate occasions, and it happens off and on all the time -- and on two separate nights (we mix in the rolemaster open ended and crit charts) I can remember a roll of 667 and one of over 800 by a player and a GM respectively, made in front of the group both time. (for those who don't know the open ended rule, basically every time you roll a 97-00 on a d100, you keep on rolling till you don't roll a 97-100 again). Beyond extreme cases such as that, crits are the norm rather than the aberration for 3 of the gamers in the group. Sadly I have none of this luck, but it certainly does happen. Maybe that's why you never see it, 'cause I always do :)


I would say your gaming group has really good dice and is very lucky with the rolls. all that I was saying is that it's really rare that does happen. Plus Josh was posting a wrong rule. Rolling a natural d20 more than once does not in itself result in an overkill or a rolling a 1 more than once result in a character death. Sometimes you can roll a 20 or a 1 on skill roll.


Marrowlight wrote:
Josh seems to care; and it bugs me too actually. We all take parts of things we like and dislike from all the rpg's we've played, and the AC system of D20 is one of my least favorite parts of it.


I can respect that and will admit my counter post could have been better phrased. It just seems like no one seems willing to try any other game if it does not allow you to do that. Which iamb is wrong. With the possible exception of a very few games out there most allow you to parry and dodge anyway. It's only wotc d20 that does not allow you to do it. At the very least not easily.

Marrowlight wrote:
Stuff happens, even to the best of characters. If you all are really into your story, you'll fudge the rule or allow for a res or something. If you're hard core about the rules over fun, then that's life - but most games have some form of death attack in them; heck, Rolemaster is far more unforgiving than D20 when it comes to that. If a rule is messing up your fun, leave it out. (that was more to Josh, but his quotes didn't get left for me to work with easily :) )


Completely agree with you. I ran one of wotc modules that pitted an adult dragon against third level characters. not only that but completely in it's element. If i did not fudge the rolls I would have ended up with a TPK and having to run for my life from my players.

Marrowlight wrote:
the differences in the combat system are one of the biggest reasons I don't think I'd like a Palladium D20.


Fair enough. A D20 conversion of any Palladium game many not be everyones cup of tea.

Marrowlight wrote:
Failing on the writer right there - if you're going to put it into a book, put some thought into it. Unless it is a Nilbog, someone is bound to love it and want to use it - so make it so they really can.


I guess I do not mind it as much as some of the D20 books that would include more background would either cost more or would be too big. But i understand where you are coming from.

Marrowlight wrote:
The biggest reason I wouldn't want a D20 Palladium is the adaption of feats into the Palladium world - the classes just aren't built properly for them in my eyes.


I cannot really comment as I have never attempted a large scale conversion of anything. though i think it could be done if it was an OGL project. Most OGLE books are as far removed from standard Wotc da2oe as possible. Check out M&M 2nd edition and Spycraft 2.0. While the systems are very similar they allow you to much more than traditional D20.

If it would get done I would like to see Green Ronin work on it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:28 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:32 pm
  

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Echoing NMI here. AlexM said no D20 so whether or not you like the idea there's no reason to get snippy with each other. Please be nice and not issue a bazillion more reports huh? :) ~Becky

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Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:06 pm
  

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Since I am still recieving complaints about this thread after I issued a warning, I am now locking it.

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