Astral Questions

[RainbowDevil]

Hello people,

I just have a question regarding Astral Projection.

According to Beyond the Supernatural 2, someone who is in Astral form but on the physical plane is unable to undertake any physical tasks or attacks. However, according to BtS2, they can attack other Astral travellers as though they were both physical. Presumably, this means that someone with a PS of 30 would also have a PS of 30 for astral attacks.

So, my question is, when it says they can attack astral travellers, does this only mean other people who are using astral projection, or other ethereal things such as entities and other ethereal beings? I would assume they're able to attack ghosts and such in that case, but then it does make astral characters quite powerful, since entities do not have an AR for their energy form, usually low HP and, since they're energy, very few of them have any attribute bonuses as they don't have a set PS, PP, etc.

Also, this raises another question. If the party is fighting an entity that is able to possess physical things, such as a possessing entity or a tectonic entity, can an astral character bypass the physical form and directly attack the entity inside?

Regards,
RD

[drewkitty ~..~]

The answer to your 1st question is yes…..the 2nd Q…nothing specificly covers that situation in the text.

The NightBane: Between the Shadows book is the best megaversial soucebook for all things astral.

[Prysus]

So, my question is, when it says they can attack astral travellers, does this only mean other people who are using astral projection, or other ethereal things such as entities and other ethereal beings?

Greetings and Salutations. From my reading, I'd say you can attack entities and such like physical beings while you're in Astral form.

I would assume they're able to attack ghosts and such in that case, but then it does make astral characters quite powerful, since entities do not have an AR for their energy form, usually low HP and, since they're energy, very few of them have any attribute bonuses as they don't have a set PS, PP, etc.

Well, I suppose how powerful it is depends on how well you plan and how well-behaved the ghost is. If you perform Astral Projection, you have to meditate for 4D4 minutes. That's a lot of time for the ghost to screw with you first. Now if the ghost isn't bothering anyone (in which case I'm not sure why you want to punch it), or if you manage to plot out its territory and then prepare at a safe location, travel there, do battle alone (unless other members of the party also have Astral Projection and willing to back you up), hope there's nothing unexpected ("Ohhh ... it's a group ghosts causing the problems, not just one like we thought ... well ****!"), and make it back to your body in time, then it's just well planned out for a particular type of enemy. *Shrugs.* I'm okay with that.

Also, this raises another question. If the party is fighting an entity that is able to possess physical things, such as a possessing entity or a tectonic entity, can an astral character bypass the physical form and directly attack the entity inside?

I'd say once the entity possesses the character, it ceases as an Astral Traveler and now has a physical form (which you can't interact with). Think about it a different way ... can other Astral Travelers attack YOUR astral form while you're in your body (not using Astral Projection)? I'd say no, and I'd say that same concept applies to other Astral Travelers (entities included). This, of course, ties back into those unexpected problems I mentioned earlier. "Ha! I went Astral so I can kick that ghost's arse. My stats are way better than his. All right ghosty, get ready for a ... wait ... what?! Crap, he just possessed my body. >_< What?! Guys, don't list to him! He did NOT just beat the ghost that fast. He IS the ghost! Now get him out of my body! *Sigh.* And now they're telling him they were wrong for doubting me when I bragged how easy this would with my power. I'm screwed."

Farewell and safe journeys.

[glitterboy2098]

if an astral form can fight entities, that means they can see entities as well.. so while astral projection might be dubious as a way to fight them.. it might make a decent way to check out a haunting and figure out what your up against.

[Shark_Force]

this came up recently in the rifts forums.

turns out most entities are not, in fact, on the astral plane. they're just energy beings. you can see them from the astral, iirc, but you cannot attack them any more than you could when you were on the physical.

[RainbowDevil]

Thanks a lot for the comments, folks.

Actually, I forgot about the 4D4 minutes. Haha!

Shark_Force: I was wondering, do you have any references for that? ie is it mentioned in one of the books somewhere?

RD

[Shark_Force]

the source is the entities themselves. never says they're astral for the "standard" ones (possessing, siphoning, tectonic, haunting, poltergeist). they're just energy beings. you can also tell by their movement rate; an astral form can move extremely fast. most of the "standard" entities move something like 30 mph... not super slow, but not nearly as fast as a coexisting astral form. astral form is just something i think many people (including myself, prior to looking into it more in-depth) assumed. but that isn't what it says it all. it just says they're energy.

(there are, however, astral entities in between the shadows. you could harm those ones by astrally projecting).

[Prysus]

the source is the entities themselves. never says they're astral for the "standard" ones (possessing, siphoning, tectonic, haunting, poltergeist). they're just energy beings. you can also tell by their movement rate; an astral form can move extremely fast. most of the "standard" entities move something like 30 mph... not super slow, but not nearly as fast as a coexisting astral form. astral form is just something i think many people (including myself, prior to looking into it more in-depth) assumed. but that isn't what it says it all. it just says they're energy.

(there are, however, astral entities in between the shadows. you could harm those ones by astrally projecting).

Greetings and Salutations. There are two flaws with your logic.

1: "you can also tell by their movement rate; an astral form can move extremely fast. most of the "standard" entities move something like 30 mph... " "there are, however, astral entities in between the shadows." Those "astral" entities also move slower than 30mph ... for the fastest of them. So if speed is the deciding factor, almost all the astral beings (not just the astral entities either) in Between the Shadows aren't really astral beings at all ... because most of them are too slow (at least by the standards you've set down as the requirement for being an astral being). In fact, Poltergeists, Syphon Entities, and Possessing Entites are guaranteed to be faster than all but two of the "astral" entities. Haunting and Tectonic Entities are on the high average end of Astral Entities (which, are on the high end for astral beings as a whole). Note: Some astral beings in Between the Shadows have a speed as slow as 3D6.

2: Since you're including Between the Shadows, we shouldn't ignore that the book states (on page 61): "In addition to the astral entities described under the section entitled "Astral Entities," other entities of pure psychic energy that can be found in the regions of the Plane, include the poltergeist, syphon, and haunting, tectonic and possessing entities." This is in the section titled: "Dwellers of the Astral Plane." Also included are Elementals, Demons, and Devils.* Note: Demons and Deevils are an interesting addition. On one hand, most have physical forms (the Labassu is one exception that comes to mind). At the same time, we have evidence from various Rifts books that suggests the physical body in the material world as we know it is only an essence (akin to an entity in some ways). So their true form can be left to some question. Now, as an individual, I'd continue to say if it has a physical/material body (even if just a temporary host), then it cannot be attacked as an Astral Traveler, because despite it's astral form it is currently using a physical one (same as a psychic when not using Astral Projection). Potential for astral forms is not the same as currently in an astral form.

Now, whether or not Entities in general are considered Astral Travelers for the purposes of combating them with Astral Projection I'm not entirely certain. I'd probably have to do a lot more research before I could find proof one way or the other (if there's proof to be had, that is). However, from the current evidence, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Shark_Force]

in the actual astral plane, you don't get the coexistent move speed. so the coexistent move speed is not telling you anything in the astral.

and just because something can be found in the astral, that doesn't make it an astral being. anything can be on the astral. elementals are not astral, they're energy. demons and devils may or may not be energy (i don't have enough information to conclusively state one way or the other, don't have a primary source handy really), but they are definitely not astral beings and cannot be attacked in physical combat by an astrally projecting being (unless you go to the actual astral plane rather than just using the coexisting part of the power). you can, for example, also find the physical minions of the nightlords in the actual astral.

[RainbowDevil]

One thing that makes me believe an astral projection can attack ghosts is the sentence on page 116, 2nd column, 1st paragraph:
"the astral body is vulnerable to psychic attacks and attacks from ghosts, entities and creatures of the astral plane."

Now, I tend to operate on the assumption that "if you can hurt it, it can hurt you" given, of course, similar methods of attacking. So, if a ghost were able to attack someone using its energy body, for example, so too can the other being react in kind.

Regards,
RD

[Shark_Force]

have you actually looked at the attacks a ghost or entity has available to it without possessing either a person or an object and making that person or object attack?

and also, there's the fact that they note creatures of the astral plane as being separate from ghosts and entities. it isn't ghosts, entities, and *other* creatures of the astral plane... just ghosts, entities, and creatures of the astral plane.

[drewkitty ~..~]

One thing that makes me believe an astral projection can attack ghosts is the sentence on page 116, 2nd column, 1st paragraph:
"the astral body is vulnerable to psychic attacks and attacks from ghosts, entities and creatures of the astral plane."

Now, I tend to operate on the assumption that "if you can hurt it, it can hurt you" given, of course, similar methods of attacking. So, if a ghost were able to attack someone using its energy body, for example, so too can the other being react in kind.

Regards,
RD

Additionally

While the character can see the invisible and other Astral Travelers, they can also see him. This make him susceptible to their psychic and astral attacks,...

[Prysus]

in the actual astral plane, you don't get the coexistent move speed. so the coexistent move speed is not telling you anything in the astral.

Greetings and Salutations. Now I'll admit I'm not an expert on the Astral Plane in Palladium Books, so provide a source for your claim. I want an actual book and page number though, not just that you and some other guys on the internet agreed and therefore it must now be fact. Also, I'd like to see a book and page number for where it says ALL Astral Travelers & Beings gain incredible speed while coexisting. Note: Simply referring to the Astral Projection power and making the jump in logic that EVERYTHING Astral must get those same powers is not an acceptable answer because it's bad logic and unsupported without further evidence.

What I can tell you is that in the Psychic Power write-up (and the magic invocation references us back to) it tells us ...

While in Astral Form the character automatically gains the ability to float, fly (mach one/670 mph/1072 km maximum) ...

Now it mentions after it starts discussing coexistence, but it does not mean it's limited to coexistence. In fact, logic would suggest this is NOT the case. For one, the book also tells us that on the Astral Plane "there is no up or down, no bottom or top; no north or south; no land or air or sea, just endless, slowly swirling light." So if there's no land and no up or down ... how do you move? Do you ... perhaps fly? You know, like that ability listed in the coexistence area?

Let's expand further. The book tells us you can be attacked on the Astral Plane. What S.D.C. and Hit Points does the character have? Does the Astral Body (also called Astral Form) stats go away, and no you use your physical (non-astral) stats? How about the silver cord it talks about? What stats does it have? If at some point you start referring to the coexistence stats (which, in my opinion, is the logical conclusion), why do you think the flight ability somehow alters? I don't see it stated, but maybe it's written somewhere.

and just because something can be found in the astral, that doesn't make it an astral being.

and also, there's the fact that they note creatures of the astral plane as being separate from ghosts and entities. it isn't ghosts, entities, and *other* creatures of the astral plane... just ghosts, entities, and creatures of the astral plane.

Agreed. Entities are NOT listed as Astral Beings, nor am I attempting to claim they are. I can even provide further quotes to support the fact they're not. Of course, the fact that they're not Astral Beings is irrelevant as it has no bearing on the discussion. A human psychic is also NOT an Astral Being.

I'm stating, that by the way things are written, Entities can be considered Astral Travelers, or the equivalent thereof. The book tells us that a human psychic (which is not an Astral Being) using Astral Projection can lock into physical combat with other Astral Travelers, such as another human psychic using Astral Projection (still not an Astral Being). So all this talk of what is and is not an Astral Being is pointless (because the book doesn't require an Astral Being for this to work). On the other hand, I'll be curious to your take on how traveling astrally doesn't make you an astral traveler.

anything can be on the astral. elementals are not astral, they're energy. demons and devils may or may not be energy (i don't have enough information to conclusively state one way or the other, don't have a primary source handy really) ...

And the reason these are interesting is that they're potentially energy beings. Demons and Deevils are questionable at being energy, but we also know they can't be killed on material planes except their home dimensions (and if killed on say Earth, they're essence energy returns home). Entities are confirmed as energy beings as well. The Astral Plane is ALSO made of energy. Though not necessarily the same type of energy, the Astral Plane is clearly stated as composed of energy (found in the psychic power write-up). All of those energy beings can live in the Astral Plane. Not just visit, but live. This is more than something like a human psychic with Astral Projection. This does give support that the two types are compatible (even if not exactly the same), which would also give support to Astral Projection being able to physically combat an Entity (though not necessarily prove, it does support). The Astral Projection write-up also describes Astral Projection as creating "a ghostly specter" and "ghostly observer." You know, ghostly (which Entities are also like).

I can provide books and page numbers for my claims, can you do the same? I don't mind being wrong if someone can support it, but simply making claims is neither proof nor a good argument to refute the books. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Shark_Force]

ugh. gonna have to go through a substantial chunk of between the shadows to get page numbers and stuff to answer a lot of these questions the way you want. do you actually own the book, or just curious where the information is?

(incidentally, if you are interested in the astral, that book is the only particularly useful source that i'm aware of on the subject...)

i will answer one specific thing though, as it does not require a book.

a human on the astral plane is an astral traveler (this does not necessarily need to be done with projection, for the record, i'll try to remember to get you a page number on the new power in BtS later). a human sitting on rifts earth in their regular body is not an astral traveler.

same thing can be true for a tectonic entity; when it is in the astral, it is an astral traveler. when it is not in the astral, it is not an astral traveler. i don't have conclusive proof that it's energy form is not like a coexisting astral projection, but again, nothing about it says that it is like a coexisting astral projection either. being like an astral projection is not the default, so by default, anything that doesn't say it is like an astral projection should presumed to not be like an astral projection. that's why we know that, for example, brodkil are not like an astral projection, or xiticix, or dragons, or humans for that matter.

[Prysus]

do you actually own the book, or just curious where the information is?

Greetings and Salutations. I have the book, which is why I was able to provide information and a page number earlier. However I'm not going through it line by line to find evidence of something I didn't find last time I looked to prove your point. I'm not saying it's NOT there, but I'm skeptical and prefer proof.

i will answer one specific thing though, as it does not require a book.
[snip]
a human sitting on rifts earth in their regular body is not an astral traveler.
[snip]
i don't have conclusive proof that it's energy form is not like a coexisting astral projection, but again, nothing about it says that it is like a coexisting astral projection either.

Well, I've already agreed anything in a physical form isn't considered astral. This includes human psychics, demons (in physical form), an entity while possessing a body, etc.

However, a human psychic using astral projection possesses many of the same traits as an Entity (invisible,.flying, passing through walls, etc.). Furthermore, quotes were provided earlier (not by me, as I didn’t feel they required repeating) that indicate an Astral Traveler and an Entity can physically interact (this is why the quotes say psychic attack AND attack, differentiating the two but making them both options). And while I won't call those quotes on their own conclusive evidence (because I can find possible other interpretations), their text along with other evidence would suggest (to me) that Entities are considered coexisting astral travelers.

So far, I haven't seen any proof to the contrary. If you have some, I'd like to see it. Right now it's just your word contradicting what we have in the book. Farewell and safe journeys.

[RainbowDevil]

Another angle to look at it is by looking at the vulnerabilities and abilities of the creatures. Now, I am using BtS2 for the majority of my information, as I'm still waiting for Between the Shadows to arrive, so maybe there's more stuff that I'm not aware of. However, do we assume that creatures can be harmed by *everything* unless it says otherwise, or that they can be harmed by *nothing* unless saying otherwise? Because, I think that plays a large part in whether or not entities can be harmed by astral attacks.

BtS2 doesn't elaborate much on what specific abilities being intangible or ethereal gives one, so we either have to use common sense (which is open to interpretation in this case - at least regarding what exactly being "Astral" means), or we have to take one of the two stances I suggested earlier. Now, let's look at the poltergeist write-up entry on BtS2 p245. Under abilities it states,

"They are impervious to physical attacks, energy, gases, drugs, poison, cold, heat, fire, disease and most everything else that can harm a
physical being."

There is nothing in that description saying they're impervious to astral attacks. It is *physical* attacks and *energy* that they're impervious to. Maybe astral bodies count as energy, but that would require written clarification, otherwise they'd have to be considered not.

However, one thing that (to me, at least) makes it pretty open and shut is the following under vulnerabilities,

"All magic and psionic attacks."

The psionic is using a psionic power to make his body in this form, isn't that therefore a *psionic attack*??


Just my thoughts anyway.

RD

[Shark_Force]

you didn't ask for page number references. prysus did. he's the one i'm wondering if he owns the book.

and seriously, go look up the attacks that an entity can make (outside of the purely physical ones available from possessing a physical thing). the reason they work on astral projections? they don't have anything except things that attack the mind or spirit.

consider, for example, a poltergeist. apart from psychic powers, the only remotely offensive thing it can do is draw on the PPE of people around it. that's it. it has no attacks. all of the entities are the same. they have psychic powers, and a psychic attack that can steal your PPE, except for the ones that can control physical things (which make physical attacks using the things they control). so yeah, of course their attacks work on astral projections. the only attacks they actually have don't target a physical body.

and it doesn't matter if the impervious ability works on astral attacks. before checking immunities, you need to be able to hit. if you can't hit, your attack could be as devastating as you want, it won't do damage, and when you are an astral projection, your basic attacks don't hit things that are not astral themselves. (as to whether they count as psychic or not, there isn't really a canon answer to that so far as i am aware, but i would be inclined to say no; the power makes you astral, but it doesn't empower your attacks in any way).

[Prysus]

However, one thing that (to me, at least) makes it pretty open and shut is the following under vulnerabilities,

"All magic and psionic attacks."

The psionic is using a psionic power to make his body in this form, isn't that therefore a *psionic attack*??

Greetings and Salutations. I'm with Shark Force on this one. Think about it a different way. Humans are also vulnerable to psychic attack. If you punch a non-astral human while you're in Astral Form, will you do damage? I'd say no (and while I'm at work so I can't quote books at this moment, I suspect the power agrees with that conclusion).

The ability to damage Entities with hand to hand would be an exception, not the general rule. I might extrapolate that exception applies to other energy beings (not in physical form), but I don't think that's stated and would be a house rule. Farewell and safe journeys.

[RainbowDevil]

you didn't ask for page number references. prysus did. he's the one i'm wondering if he owns the book.

I don't understand why you wrote this? I didn't say anything in my last message about providing page numbers. I provided references (as any good researcher would ), but that was it.

Also, just because a certain creature has no attacks in a certain realm of combat doesn't mean it can't be attacked in that way. If their body happens to overlap with another realm and is able to be attacked, the fact that they haven't bothered doing their astral push-ups and burpies is their own problem. Hey, us humans have no real ability to harm sharks (with our natural weapons), but we can still be eaten by them!

Okay, I know I'm being a little facetious, but I think it's still a point.

Also, while I agree that you have to be able to hit something before seeing if you can harm it, if you *can't* hit it, then that would be stated in its stats somewhere, or have a separate entry on "intangibility/ethereal beings". The only thing its stats say it's impervious to is *physical* attacks.

RD

[RainbowDevil]

The ability to damage Entities with hand to hand would be an exception, not the general rule. I might extrapolate that exception applies to other energy beings (not in physical form), but I don't think that's stated and would be a house rule. [/justify]

But it specifically states that entities *can't* be harmed by physical attacks, and also that astral projectors are unable to attack physical beings with their attacks. So, as I see it, my statement that "things can be harmed unless stated that they can't" I think still follows.

RD

[Prysus]

But it specifically states that entities *can't* be harmed by physical attacks, and also that astral projectors are unable to attack physical beings with their attacks. So, as I see it, my statement that "things can be harmed unless stated that they can't" I think still follows.

RD

Greetings and Salutations. In BtS2, page 116, 2nd column, third paragraph it states: "The Astral Body cannot, however ... touch anything on the material plane."

This does not state only solids, physical, liquid, or any other qualifiers, just the material plane. Both the Astral Body (while coexisting) and the Entity (unless on the Astral Plane) would be in the Material Plane. If the Entity is not on the Material Plane, then it won't matter if you can hurt it because it's not there in the first place. There's nothing stating you can suddenly scoop up gas (which is not a physical being) or light (a type of energy) and hold it like a ball while in Astral Form either.

Just because two things cannot interact with physical objects does not, by default, mean they can affect each other. Now the book gives indication that, in this case, Astral Forms and Entities may be able to interact. However, this is because of the text in the book. While you might consider both their lack of ability to interact with physical objects as a clue, I'd say it's far from proof. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


P.S. I'm at home this time, so I have access to my books again.

[RainbowDevil]

Okay, so my copy of Between the Shadows (BtS, like Beyond the Supernatural , although since it has dreaming stuff in it maybe it should be Between the Sheets? ) arrived today after only a week. Very impressed, I must add!

Anyway, if we assume that book is the "authority" on astral stuff, which many people seem to be suggesting, then I think I have found compulsive proof that entities are astral. If we look at the power Astral Transference on page 113, the opening paragraph of the power states that it turns the character "into an astral construct, similar to an entity or other energy beings".

Any thoughts?

RD

[RainbowDevil]

^^ "Compulsive proof"? huh??? is "compulsive" proof?? Okay, I meant "conclusive". I hope I can blame my spell-check.

[Prysus]

Okay, so my copy of Between the Shadows (BtS, like Beyond the Supernatural

Greetings and Salutations. Congrats on the new book.

Anyway, if we assume that book is the "authority" on astral stuff, which many people seem to be suggesting

This is primarily because it's the only Palladium Book that really discusses the Astral Plane beyond the Astral Projection power. So it's more like if you want to know more about the Astral Plane beyond what's in the Astral Projection psi-power, this is your only source.

If we look at the power Astral Transference on page 113, the opening paragraph of the power states that it turns the character "into an astral construct, similar to an entity or other energy beings".

Any thoughts?

RD

Hmm ... I can't think of any legitimate reason that's not conclusive. While it's possible it could be referring to Astral Entities, it states "other energy beings" which would include traditional Entities as well. And the full write-up also compares the power to Astral Projection power (telling us Astral Transference isn't some totally different power that might follow different rules). Nice find. Farewell and safe journeys to all.