Megaverse in Flames Review

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

[Sureshot]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

That's the reason given. But how many good factions on Rifts Earth can hurt Atlantis. Not many IMO. Even then with the way they are written as being untrusting if each other Sokynn should easily destroy Almost any and all who try to oppose him IMO.

[kaid]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

Splynn baring some sort of trecherous sneak attack directly at him forcing him to flee will likely be the last player standing. He has planets worth of resources he can devote to holding his one island.

[azazel1024]

Hmmmm, I haven't gotten the book yet, but I am interested. I have the others. I can't seem to recall seeing or hearing anything about a HoH book, but at the sametime I was never aware that anything like the supposed content of HoH would be in Megaverse in Flames. So I can't rightly say I am dissapointed, or shocked or anything. I just hope it isn't a book that is a year+ down the line.

I am very excited about the new PFRPG book coming along (off topic, I know) and rather excited about the topic...though I'd love more Lopan, Old Kingdom low lands/mountains and/or Land of the South Winds info, I am very interested in this new book as I feel like the Wolfen/Byzantium/Shadow Colonies stuff is the most interesting (to me) stuff.

I do also hope that Underseas 2 is coming at some point. NG2 was awesome, but I did feel like the naval NG stuff was grossly lacking considering how much stuff NG seems to do with merchant/naval stuff, I expected to see more examples of surface/submerisble ships, both merchant and military. I know they don't compete against CS, but I still expected to see at least one or two corvette scale/class warships if not frigate level and a number of merchant ships of all sizes. Maybe a PA/helicopter carrier of some sort.

But...HoH huh? I'd buy that.

[azazel1024]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

That's the reason given. But how many good factions on Rifts Earth can hurt Atlantis. Not many IMO. Even then with the way they are written as being untrusting if each other Sokynn should easily destroy Almost any and all who try to oppose him IMO.

Who are currently ON Rifts Earth yes. But the meta reason is that is Splyncryth tried to take over more than Atlantis, outside forces would likely step in to put the Kaboosh on his plans. There are a number of extra dimensional forces who very well might step in. Any number of NPCs from CB2 being key among them (IE, a lot of the God's might take a dim view of someone actually taking over Rift's Earth...and most of the various God's, let alone patheons have massively more forces at their overall command than Splynn's modest "3 planets").

So Splynncryth is unlikely to lose control of Atlantis without some amazingly power powerbloc going after him, but at the same time, no one else is likely to dislodge him from Atlantis without a VERY serious fight as he can easily bring to bear more firepower and forces than any currently on Rift's Earth powers possibly could. Doesn't mean that the Demon's/Devvils would have an easy time of prying him loose...but it also doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to given the time and one of them defeating the other one.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

Splynn baring some sort of trecherous sneak attack directly at him forcing him to flee will likely be the last player standing. He has planets worth of resources he can devote to holding his one island.

...... Isn't that what I said?

[azazel1024]

Not really. Splynn has three planets full of back up doesn't he? Atlantis is just the tip of the iceburg of his power. As pointed out he doesn't flex against the rest of Rift's earth because it would bring in other cosmic factors to stop him, but if attacked his power base is hugely deep and he could port millions to billions of troops in to put down attacks on Atlantis.

Splynn baring some sort of trecherous sneak attack directly at him forcing him to flee will likely be the last player standing. He has planets worth of resources he can devote to holding his one island.

...... Isn't that what I said?

It's not that you said it, it's how you said it

[kaid]

More like I quoted the wrong post haha. Its what I get for posting at work when doing other stuff. I have nearly finished reading the book after having been interupted by a convention and some other work stuff. Honestly I don't see anything from what they originally discussed having in megaverse in flames that is not in the book or pushed off to HOH.

It sets the stage of where the active parts are on rifts earth, fleshes out blood magic/soulmancy (pardon the semi pun), Gives a basic over view of how some of the initial stances of the various parts of the world major players are.

Its format is very similar to dimensional outbreak for the phase world setting and even a bit more detailed about demonic holdings and focus. Overall I think its an excellent rifts resource because it adds a lot of stuff to make normal demons/devils into more of an actual threat. I can easily see the initial rush failing in many parts of the world only to have a semi constant thorn in the sides of the major players of demonic/infernal outposts and hell pits located in the middle of nowhere that are hard to find and harder to root out for good and a constant battle of alertness needed to keep new hell pits from being made. Due to the amount of area needed to watch and vigilance needed it may wind up being something that brings a lot of the major forces into if not alliance at least long term truce as none of them could afford to relax their guard least another demonic incursion happen.

[kaid]

Okay after having a chance to read through the book a couple times I have to say at least the initial wave the demons are going to be much more of a challenge than the devils are. About the only major devil threat is their city in cuba. Most of their other forces are pretty small and of the few that are more sizable one is heading into the 5 way cluster screw that is europe which sounds like is going to end badly for all involved or northern canada and for whatever reason deciding they want to tackle the hivelands first.

One thing that puzzles me is the devil faction that wants to bum rush the hive lands states it will potentially kill up to 40% of the xiticix before their attacks peter out but this force only has about 50k devils total. Going against a pretty much totally unknown opponent I am not sure how that few devils would go about killing that many xiticix. Still even with that optimistic kill ratio they still likely wind up nearly wiped out and easy pickings for NG,CS,lazlo forces and thats not even counting the demon invasion at tolkeen and calgary.

I think it would make for some fun gaming though two forces of highly overconfident extra dimensional forces that have no clue of the meat grinder they are about to stick their sensitive bits into.

[Killer Cyborg]

One thing that puzzles me is the devil faction that wants to bum rush the hive lands states it will potentially kill up to 40% of the xiticix before their attacks peter out but this force only has about 50k devils total.

Yeah, if it's talking about 40% of the xiticix TOTAL, then that's just lunacy.
They'd need kill ratio of something like 10,000:1.

[azazel1024]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

[kaid]

I think once the devils have time to learn about the xiticix stealth deep strikes in line with what lazlo was thinking of would work but straight up combat would be suicide for them. Even with the upgraded soulmancy weapons/armor/vehicles xits either match of outrange anything the devils/demons have with their TK rifles. Most devils are not that physically strong MDC wise. They probably on average have about the same to a smidge more MDC than xiticix have and given the sure numbers the xiticix can bring to bear regeneration would not help much unless they wind up abandoning the fight and teleporting away.

One other thing I find kind of odd is the talk about Free quebec not being setup well to defend themselves vs the threats. While most demons/devils are vulnerable to certain types of weapons in general all but a handfull still take full MDC damage from kinetic MDC attacks so glitter boys are more than good enough for swatting down demons/devils in vast numbers. I think the biggest problem free quebec will have is lack of psi hounds/psi stalkers or magicians to detect demonic/devil infiltration. Chitown is totally anti magic pro human but at least they recognize the dangers of magic and were willing to do what was necessary to at very least detect and hunt them down which also leaves them pretty well situated for fending off infiltration attempts of devils/demons.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I like FQ and love their armor and Samus.

That said, the fact that they're so RABIDLY Human centric, that their refusal to use Psi-hounds and psistalkers is coming home to bite them in the ass, makes me smile.

[kaid]

It will be ironic that one of the forces best poised to help them would be lazlo.

[ghost2020]

Looks like another fantastic book. Looking forward to really diving into it.

I have to say though, that Bradshaw's art is too cartoony. I'm ok with it in Dead Reign but in RIFTS books it just seems very out of place.


I would love to see some companion volumes with short scenarios in them or a full on campaign. That would be fantastic. Possibly one from the CS point of view, another from an adventurer group and another one that is full on dimension hopping (Heroes Unlimited, Palladium Fantasy, Phase World and RIFTS).

[Zenvis]

Who is credited for blood magic in this book, or is there blood magic?

[kaid]

Who is credited for blood magic in this book, or is there blood magic?

Blood magic/soulmancy is apparently the same thing or rolled into one thing now and is used by both of the minion sides.

[Hystrix]

It will be ironic that one of the forces best poised to help them would be lazlo.

Or the Psi-Stalkers native to the region.

Most Psi-Stalkers wouldn't work with Demons or Deevils, but some might be desperate enough (or might get tortchered into releasing info). My point is, that I don't think Psi-Stalkers would nessisarily team up with Deevils, but they might provide them info (like using Xiticix pheremones) about how to fight the bugmen.

I'd be different if they were fighting 50 million xiticix on a flat open terrain. They arn't. The Xiticix are scattered across hundreds of miles and are divided into 6 different hives. Also remember that Overlord Sindel is a master tactitian. He's not just gonna "charge the gates." He will use hit and run tactics, teleportation, and will bottle neck the Xiticx in there hives where they're numbers will be nullified.

The Deevil's won't win (it even states that in the book), but I have no problem beleiving they can out class the bug men long enough to do some damage.

IDK, I have some more thoughts on this. I just have to jot them down...

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

[Zenvis]

...but who got credit for the magic?

[Hystrix]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

You know the average Xiticix Warrior at 1st level has about 71 MDC? I don't know how you use Greater Demons and Devils, but I'd give them better than a 2:1.

[kaid]

If it was demons going vs the xiticix I would be a bit more prone to believe the numbers stated because a lot of the demonic shock troopers are physically very strong like gargoyles. Devils though their common troops are pretty much on par with xiticix MDC wise. There are some greater devils that are physically very tough but their numbers are way smaller than the normal host of a devil army. The general is talked about being a master tactician but he also seems to be totally underestimating the numbers/powers of the xiticix. Yes in general xiticix are pretty dumb but fighting them is more like fighting an elemental force like a forrest fire than a traditional enemy. I have no doubt in time they could find at least semi decent ways to engage the xiticix or at least make some deep strikes vs queens but there is a good chance they would lose most if not all of their forces in the initial engagements. I don't care how good your tactics are if you kick a hive containing a few million angry bug guys a sizable percentage of which have weapons with double the range of all but your forces heaviest weaponry.

Send in a small force to feel them out and it simply get eaten alive. So you wind up having to send in pretty big forces just to have enough to get some back to tell you how the fight went with probably pretty massive casualties.

The devil forces major strong points is their infiltration abilities for sneaking in amongst humans and causing internal strife/mischief but those tactics would have almost zero effect on xiticix.

I think between the various devil factions/demon factions though that after the minion war one way or the other xiticix are going to be relegated into a pretty managable threat and in doing so wind up likely making the demon/devil threats from that part of north america pretty managable as well because the xiticix are going to go insane from these attacks and boil out and swarm any demon/devil they find near them which is going to make the tolkeen beach head VERY hard for the demons to hold.

[Daniel Stoker]

See that's why I'd have spotters in Astral Form sent in to watch these fights with their bodies back a safe distance away.


Daniel Stoker

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

You know the average Xiticix Warrior at 1st level has about 71 MDC? I don't know how you use Greater Demons and Devils, but I'd give them better than a 2:1.

have you ever run a mass combat? Your Greater Demons and Devils would be reduced to demonic pulp before they could even do the 71 MDC to a single Xit, baring a crit of course. They'd do about 40 to 50 with one swing (because we're going to give them a chance and let them enter melee, since otherwise the pitiful range of magic is outgunned by the TK rifles and whatnot of the bugs) and then have to answer a couple dozen attacks from the buggy warriors. Throw in a Super-Warrior and the Hunters and that demon doesn't make it out of the first action. Then because the hives are just crawling with these things, they have more than enough to swarm any number of demons and rinse and repeat. In these games, numbers always beat raw power, every time.

Now from a story telling standpoint, I'd give them a little more leeway, but I'd still give the bugs a decisive victory and for much the same reasons.

[kaid]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

You know the average Xiticix Warrior at 1st level has about 71 MDC? I don't know how you use Greater Demons and Devils, but I'd give them better than a 2:1.

have you ever run a mass combat? Your Greater Demons and Devils would be reduced to demonic pulp before they could even do the 71 MDC to a single Xit, baring a crit of course. They'd do about 40 to 50 with one swing (because we're going to give them a chance and let them enter melee, since otherwise the pitiful range of magic is outgunned by the TK rifles and whatnot of the bugs) and then have to answer a couple dozen attacks from the buggy warriors. Throw in a Super-Warrior and the Hunters and that demon doesn't make it out of the first action. Then because the hives are just crawling with these things, they have more than enough to swarm any number of demons and rinse and repeat. In these games, numbers always beat raw power, every time.

Now from a story telling standpoint, I'd give them a little more leeway, but I'd still give the bugs a decisive victory and for much the same reasons.

It is not quite as bad as that since there are a fair amount of soulmancy ranged weapons available and to give them the benefit of the doubt assume the entire force has access to them. That said the max range on most of them is about 2000 feet. They do have some vehicles that help a but in a straight up combat they will not fare well. The best tactics would be the lazlo plan but I am not sure if a new arrogant force that has minimal contact with/knowledge of the xiticix could or would be able to pull that off without first stepping into the meat grinder a few times to realize any normal assault has less than zero chance of working.

[kaid]

Also both the demon and devil factions seem to both have the bright idea that they want to make xiticix warrior minion clients by conquering them. It seems like they see the xiticix as something along the lines of primitive gargoyles or something of that nature and don't seem to grasp the actual nature of the xiticix.

[Hystrix]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

You know the average Xiticix Warrior at 1st level has about 71 MDC? I don't know how you use Greater Demons and Devils, but I'd give them better than a 2:1.

have you ever run a mass combat? Your Greater Demons and Devils would be reduced to demonic pulp before they could even do the 71 MDC to a single Xit, baring a crit of course. They'd do about 40 to 50 with one swing (because we're going to give them a chance and let them enter melee, since otherwise the pitiful range of magic is outgunned by the TK rifles and whatnot of the bugs) and then have to answer a couple dozen attacks from the buggy warriors. Throw in a Super-Warrior and the Hunters and that demon doesn't make it out of the first action. Then because the hives are just crawling with these things, they have more than enough to swarm any number of demons and rinse and repeat. In these games, numbers always beat raw power, every time.

Now from a story telling standpoint, I'd give them a little more leeway, but I'd still give the bugs a decisive victory and for much the same reasons.

What exactly do you envision with this battle? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really asking.

You see, I don't believe it would be 51,000 Deevils marching out on a battlefield and challenging 50,000,000 Xiticix (which would be every Xiticix including Nannies, Workers, and Diggers from EVERY hive).

No. First of all Overlord Sindel (sp?) his a military genius. In his description it talks about how he's conquered other dimensions. He was instrumental in saving Dyval Prime during the Taut Offensive. He's not running in headlong with no battle strategy against an enemy yelling "COOOBRAAAA."

Secondly, it states that all the Demons and Deevil leaders are starting out by fortifying Hell Pits. After which they bolster there numbers 10 to 20 times. That 51,066 Deevil army he has is just a starting point. Who ever he attacks first will have hundreds of thousands of Deevils to contend with.

Third, and related to the first, they will attack the hives from the inside. Using information they will extract from local Xiticix fighters they learn how to use Xiticix scent glands, and infiltrate hives. Once inside small groups of 100-200 Deevils clear out chambers one at a time, where the Xiticix numbers are less effective (it's hard for the Xiticix to send thousands of bugs into one chamber -- this reduces the numbers that the Deevils face at one time).

Fourth, according to World Book 23 page 85, the estimated bug men go from 30 million (109 PA) to 50 million in a year (110 PA) [NOTE: It talks about the population estmates starting in 105 PA, the last one the give is 50 million after 5 years. That's where I get the year 110 PA]. That means that the extra 20 million (40% of the population) would consist of young Xiticix (who are much weaker than an adult.

Breaking it down:

- In 110 PA there are around 50,000,000 Xiticix.

- Sindel's first target might be (65% chance) the Xiticix in Minnesota (that's the Duluth Hive).

- Duluth is the oldest hive, and the biggest. The books don't say how big. I am estimated 60% of all Xiticix are part of the Duluth hive. I'm open to others opinions on that figure.

- That would make the Duluth hive 30 million strong.

- According to World Book 23, 51% of any hive is fighting class Xiticix (Warriors, Hunters, Leapers, and Super Warriors).

- That's 15,300,000 fighting class Xiticix.

- However, 40% of those are young Xiticix. Young Xiticix, according to the book, are kept back in the hives and are not really front line Soldiers.

- That makes it 9,180,000 fighting class Adult Xiticix. While others can fight, if the bugs are relying on Workers (average 33 MDC), Nannies, Diggers and young to defend, they are screwed.

- By the time, Sindel brings in all his forces (up to a million troops), the Bugs will really only outnumber them 9 to 1, and I like those odds.

[Killer Cyborg]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

[Hystrix]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS.

[Killer Cyborg]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS.

Ask and ye shall receive!

I'm going off of WB23, but also off of Aftermath.
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.

[Alrik Vas]

"Everything that breeds is a threat."

-Killer Cyborg

That thread was a lot of fun to read.

[Hystrix]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS.

Ask and ye shall receive!

I'm going off of WB23, but also off of Aftermath.
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.

Gotcha. Good post!

Now if only the Demons and Deevils had more numbers to pool from.

Truth is that no matter what the numbers are the Xiticix are a threat to anyone on Rifts Earth. NO ONE can take the Xiticix man to, uh, bug. Short of the Demon or Deevils bringing in millions or tens or HUNDREDS of millions of troops there is no open feild battle that's a win. However, that's where smarts and tactics come in. Many of these Demon and Deevil generals have been fighting wars for THOUSANDS of years. As I said before, fighting in the inside of hives reduces the numbers capabilities. You can't put a million warriors in one chamber. BTW watch the movie 300 again to see a small force take on huge numbers. They lost, but the damage that small force vs. a much much larger force was amazing, and they used terrain to thier advantage.

Here's the bottom line: EVERY major player on Rifts Earth is beatable. If they weren't there would be no point in playing the game. But not every senario is a straight up battle on a flat, sterile landscape. Time, terrian, weather, logistics, and numbers are all factors. So are magic, psionics, and ley line and nexus activity. I'm so sick of hearing: "Atlantis is unbeatable" or "the Xiticix are unbeatable" or "Triax is unbeatable." Hear me out: NOTHING is unbeatable.

[kaid]

The xiticix window of beatability is rapidly closing which is why in the long run the minion war may wind up being a good thing for rifts earth north america at least.

The xiticix have been ignored too long and are reaching the point of just exploding population wise across north america. There is probably a 2 -3 year window where if they were not engaged heavily it would be to late to stop short of rendering large portions uninhabitable via large scale use of high yield city buster nukes.

I think devil or especially demon forces would be a pretty reasonable force to if not defeat them to diminish them enough to be at least a manageable threat but the number that had me puzzled was a force of 50kish eliminating 40% of the xiticix. I can see deep strikes being effective in killing queens but this would not kill 10s+ millions of bugs. It would keep the population from growing and eventually work to kill off the rest but for the attacks to have much chance they would have to be pretty surgical so the book numbers seemed odd.

My calculations were matching up with the other person after reading aftermath where we are looking at some truly scary potential population numbers for xiticix. Best case we are looking at probably half a billion bugs worst case its a billion plus.

Really the best course to take the xiticix would be a combination of high altitude bombing to thin out the herd and deep strikes using magic to kill queens.

Even if the demons open hell pits big enough to summon millions of demons a head to head force on force combat between xiticix and those forces would likely wind up worse for the minion side than the xiticix side. Now trying to engage in this kind of combat with the tech and magic forces of north america striking against you at the same time you have tens to hundreds of millions of bug men who are now freaking out and lashing out at anything vaguely demonic/devilish in form is not a great recipe for anything other than chaos and failure.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think devil or especially demon forces would be a pretty reasonable force to if not defeat them to diminish them enough to be at least a manageable threat but the number that had me puzzled was a force of 50kish eliminating 40% of the xiticix.

Yup.

My calculations were matching up with the other person after reading aftermath where we are looking at some truly scary potential population numbers for xiticix. Best case we are looking at probably half a billion bugs worst case its a billion plus.

Well, the WORST case scenario, the six hives on Rifts Earth split at the 500 million mark, so they're more like about 3 billion.

But yeah, there's a crap-ton of them however you break it down.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS.

Ask and ye shall receive!

I'm going off of WB23, but also off of Aftermath.
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.

Gotcha. Good post!

Now if only the Demons and Deevils had more numbers to pool from.

Truth is that no matter what the numbers are the Xiticix are a threat to anyone on Rifts Earth. NO ONE can take the Xiticix man to, uh, bug. Short of the Demon or Deevils bringing in millions or tens or HUNDREDS of millions of troops there is no open feild battle that's a win. However, that's where smarts and tactics come in. Many of these Demon and Deevil generals have been fighting wars for THOUSANDS of years. As I said before, fighting in the inside of hives reduces the numbers capabilities. You can't put a million warriors in one chamber. BTW watch the movie 300 again to see a small force take on huge numbers. They lost, but the damage that small force vs. a much much larger force was amazing, and they used terrain to thier advantage.

Here's the bottom line: EVERY major player on Rifts Earth is beatable. If they weren't there would be no point in playing the game. But not every senario is a straight up battle on a flat, sterile landscape. Time, terrian, weather, logistics, and numbers are all factors. So are magic, psionics, and ley line and nexus activity. I'm so sick of hearing: "Atlantis is unbeatable" or "the Xiticix are unbeatable" or "Triax is unbeatable." Hear me out: NOTHING is unbeatable.

why do the demons get to clog out the hordes of bugs in their own hives and not the other way around? It would seem to me the bugs are more like the spartans in that analogy.

[Hystrix]

I calculated the number of bugs at about 1.2 billion total.
I mentioned the number to Kevin once, and he said "That sounds about right."

Granted, it was an off-hand, informal comment, but I take it to mean that I was in the ballpark.

I'd love to see your figures. I'm going off of WB 23.

If Kevin said it its hard to argue, but id love to see something more in writing. The Xiticix home world talks about hives having 500 million, but they dominate the whole planet. Rifts Earth bugs are in Northern Minnesota , Manitoba, and North and South Dakota. I'm not sure where they all fit.

Hey I reserve the right to be wrong about this, I'm just going off the book. Not everyone gets there info directly from KS.

Ask and ye shall receive!

I'm going off of WB23, but also off of Aftermath.
viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
"Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%."
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.

Gotcha. Good post!

Now if only the Demons and Deevils had more numbers to pool from.

Truth is that no matter what the numbers are the Xiticix are a threat to anyone on Rifts Earth. NO ONE can take the Xiticix man to, uh, bug. Short of the Demon or Deevils bringing in millions or tens or HUNDREDS of millions of troops there is no open feild battle that's a win. However, that's where smarts and tactics come in. Many of these Demon and Deevil generals have been fighting wars for THOUSANDS of years. As I said before, fighting in the inside of hives reduces the numbers capabilities. You can't put a million warriors in one chamber. BTW watch the movie 300 again to see a small force take on huge numbers. They lost, but the damage that small force vs. a much much larger force was amazing, and they used terrain to thier advantage.

Here's the bottom line: EVERY major player on Rifts Earth is beatable. If they weren't there would be no point in playing the game. But not every senario is a straight up battle on a flat, sterile landscape. Time, terrian, weather, logistics, and numbers are all factors. So are magic, psionics, and ley line and nexus activity. I'm so sick of hearing: "Atlantis is unbeatable" or "the Xiticix are unbeatable" or "Triax is unbeatable." Hear me out: NOTHING is unbeatable.

why do the demons get to clog out the hordes of bugs in their own hives and not the other way around? It would seem to me the bugs are more like the spartans in that analogy.

Why is that?

Deevils are better at tactics, and smarter. The point was using terrain against the Xiticix. Plus the Deevils are the ones out numbered. I stand by that analogy.

[kaid]

The problem with that analogy is the spartans held the defensive location to wield the smaller force vs the large one. In this case they would be the attackers vs a presumably heavily defended hive queen in a room specifically constructed of MDC materials for the defense and protection of the queen and the young. Your analogy would be a bit more like the persians holding the hot gates while the 300 charged down and attacked from the open beach.

[Hystrix]

The problem with that analogy is the spartans held the defensive location to wield the smaller force vs the large one. In this case they would be the attackers vs a presumably heavily defended hive queen in a room specifically constructed of MDC materials for the defense and protection of the queen and the young. Your analogy would be a bit more like the persians holding the hot gates while the 300 charged down and attacked from the open beach.

Just talking about terrain. Please everyone stop ignoring the point.

[kaid]

I was talking about the terrain. The hive queen rooms are inhabited by the queen/young queens, and the biggest strongest and physically most dangerous defenders the hive possesses plus the usual boat ton of workers/nannies/nippers/diggers all in a room that is specifically designed and constructed with one goal in mind protect the queen. The terrain in the queens room favors the queen and her defenders and if you do manage a deep strike of entering into the chamber with a sizable force you are now stuck in between the queens body guards who are the biggest and strongest warriors in the hive and all other xiticix in the hive who are now going insane trying to defend the queen.

While it is probably the best way to attack the xiticix the attackers only major advantage in this situation is surprise and if they cannot manage to kill the queen in a minute or two the attack is likely going to have to port back out or die horribly.

[Hystrix]

I was talking about the terrain. The hive queen rooms are inhabited by the queen/young queens, and the biggest strongest and physically most dangerous defenders the hive possesses plus the usual boat ton of workers/nannies/nippers/diggers all in a room that is specifically designed and constructed with one goal in mind protect the queen. The terrain in the queens room favors the queen and her defenders and if you do manage a deep strike of entering into the chamber with a sizable force you are now stuck in between the queens body guards who are the biggest and strongest warriors in the hive and all other xiticix in the hive who are now going insane trying to defend the queen.

While it is probably the best way to attack the xiticix the attackers only major advantage in this situation is surprise and if they cannot manage to kill the queen in a minute or two the attack is likely going to have to port back out or die horribly.

It also takes away the numbers advantage. That's what I'm saying.

It seems everyone is under the impression that it will be one big open field battle ("Let's get 'em, boys!"). When in reality, no war works that way.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well, keep in mind. The Xits don't have magic. Most Demons/Devils regenerate at an amazing rate, not including magical healing, magical force fields, etc. Most Demons are easily capabile of taking on a xit in 3-4:1 numbers for a minor demon and some of the greater demons, not even lords, but regular greater demons likely could take them on at 10 or 20:1 odds and stand a pretty good chance of walking away.

And be able to do it again an hour or two later.

Basically if they were smart abount it they'd do things like "surgical" strikes against a hive to draw out a response and then ambush the response in overwhelming numbers instead of attempting to bum rush a hive.

I think if the Demons could take on anything from 2-3:1 their own numbers they could possibly walk away from that with very, very tiny losses of their own while erradicating the Xiticix. Do that a few times to weaken a smaller hive and then take the hive on directly. With the right application of magic, they probably could defeat hundres of times their own number without severe losses. Keep in mind the Xits are realitively dumb, compared to most demons (or humans). They don't have advanced technology, psionics or magic. Demons can do things like unleash hurricanes, lava flows, magical darkness, carpets of adhesion, magical nets, comets, etc, etc. rendering/killing/wounding dozens at a time for a single spell (if not hundreds) since these are also opponents which are likely to be MASSED again the demons. Same advantage, to a degree, that humans have against the xit. The xit have overwhelming numbers, but when a single long range missile might blast 30-100 xits with a 70ft blast radius, it is easily possible to kill hundreds of them in exchange for a single robot vehicle, demon, etc.

Downside is, get the xits in range and their TK rifles with HUNDREDS of them firing at you will absolutely SHRED anything in seconds. Gotta get them at range or get them such that they can't employee any of their own long range weapons, and still have a chance even though they are trying to physically swarm you under.

maybe with the xits from the old Rifts main book, but with their crazy upgrade, I could see a 2:1 ratio for a greater demon, if that. Unless we're just talking workers/drones, otherwise, unless the demons are employing demon nukes, they are in for a rude surprise.
I know from experience that 2 warriors took out a CS squad we were playing consisting of a Juicer, Heavy Borg, Killhound, Special Forces in a Striker SAMAS and an SF Officer in a mauler. It was a nightmare.

You know the average Xiticix Warrior at 1st level has about 71 MDC? I don't know how you use Greater Demons and Devils, but I'd give them better than a 2:1.

have you ever run a mass combat? Your Greater Demons and Devils would be reduced to demonic pulp before they could even do the 71 MDC to a single Xit, baring a crit of course. They'd do about 40 to 50 with one swing (because we're going to give them a chance and let them enter melee, since otherwise the pitiful range of magic is outgunned by the TK rifles and whatnot of the bugs) and then have to answer a couple dozen attacks from the buggy warriors. Throw in a Super-Warrior and the Hunters and that demon doesn't make it out of the first action. Then because the hives are just crawling with these things, they have more than enough to swarm any number of demons and rinse and repeat. In these games, numbers always beat raw power, every time.

Now from a story telling standpoint, I'd give them a little more leeway, but I'd still give the bugs a decisive victory and for much the same reasons.

To an extent, this is why the CS wins as well. Even a lvl 1 trooper gets 4 or 5 attacks per melee. One sergeant calling out coordinated fire for a platoon and they vaporize most any enemy in one or two attacks (Not rounds) You get 10, 20, 30 troops all shooting at the same thing. that's 30 shots hitting at once. That 'thing' is likely to be a red mist, then the sergeant goes "Big one with the funny horn" and they all shoot that one. Then the Sergeant goes "Ugly purple one approaching the right flank" and they all shoot that one.

The bugs can do this instinctively and fly. They can hover out of reach and do the same thing, but by the 100s or 1000s.

[Pepsi Jedi]

What exactly do you envision with this battle? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really asking.

You see, I don't believe it would be 51,000 Deevils marching out on a battlefield and challenging 50,000,000 Xiticix (which would be every Xiticix including Nannies, Workers, and Diggers from EVERY hive).

No. First of all Overlord Sindel (sp?) his a military genius. In his description it talks about how he's conquered other dimensions. He was instrumental in saving Dyval Prime during the Taut Offensive. He's not running in headlong with no battle strategy against an enemy yelling "COOOBRAAAA."

Being fair, all generals and leaders in rifts books are described as military geniuses, with one or two glaring exceptions. They're all brilliant and the heroes of 100s of battles where they won against overwhelming odds. They're 'epic!"

That said, we've rarely seen strategies that much surpassed the running forward and bashing the opponent's fists with your face tactics. the SoT showed much of this. Now that's not picking on Palladium. They're RPG guys. Not military guys. Their military experience is from movies and video games. But still, "The bad guy is written to be a military genius" Hasn't stopped the past 20 years of Derp, when reflecting a military, in the game.

Third, and related to the first, they will attack the hives from the inside. Using information they will extract from local Xiticix fighters they learn how to use Xiticix scent glands, and infiltrate hives.

They're going to stop and ask puny mortals how to do stuff? These tens of thousands of supernatural evil guys with super geniuses military leaders are going to all show up and base their attack plans on some guys they find in the woods of a lesser species? Aren't they also arrogant beyond belief and evil? Yeah I know it's smart to get intell on who you're fighting but the super evil army from hell is going to do it 'that' way? And then base their fights and tactics off a few fleshy lumps they happened to stumble across in remote Canada?

Once inside small groups of 100-200 Deevils clear out chambers one at a time, where the Xiticix numbers are less effective (it's hard for the Xiticix to send thousands of bugs into one chamber -- this reduces the numbers that the Deevils face at one time).

Yeah but they don't stop coming. And if you block a hole, they're just going to keep coming till there's a new hole. Not impossible but "Small groups" aren't going to be clearing chambers and just holding them indefinably.

Now, I don't have the book yet, but this isn't going to be an easy fight for anyone. To take out the Xits you need a Xit bug spray that can take um out with out having to go in and hack the head off of every living one of um.


I -am- glad to see that my prediction was at least partially correct, in that which ever force landed in Canada would go at it with the Xits before they came after the humans and would drastically cut back on both Xit and Demon/Devil numbers, which would make it more feasible for Humanity and the Dbees to survive/win. It's a handy hand of god to knock back those Xit numbers to more manageable levels.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I was talking about the terrain. The hive queen rooms are inhabited by the queen/young queens, and the biggest strongest and physically most dangerous defenders the hive possesses plus the usual boat ton of workers/nannies/nippers/diggers all in a room that is specifically designed and constructed with one goal in mind protect the queen. The terrain in the queens room favors the queen and her defenders and if you do manage a deep strike of entering into the chamber with a sizable force you are now stuck in between the queens body guards who are the biggest and strongest warriors in the hive and all other xiticix in the hive who are now going insane trying to defend the queen.

While it is probably the best way to attack the xiticix the attackers only major advantage in this situation is surprise and if they cannot manage to kill the queen in a minute or two the attack is likely going to have to port back out or die horribly.

It also takes away the numbers advantage. That's what I'm saying.

It seems everyone is under the impression that it will be one big open field battle ("Let's get 'em, boys!"). When in reality, no war works that way.

*hands you the SoT books*

In theory you're right. In application not so much.

Yes a small surgical strike into a Bug hive could slip in before the MILLIONS are massed against them, but as pointed out, being a small surgical strike team means you don't have sustainability.

Even with level 15 guys, they only have so many attacks per melee. The bugs have millions. Once you're in the hive and killing things they come. and they keep on coming till you're dead.

Unless you can some how Teleport straight into the queen's chamber, you're going to have to fight your way to her. So your small group, gets in. Starts fighting and the bugs mount a defense. Not the least of which is they can fill every tunnel leading into thequeen's chamber with 10,000 warriors, shoulder to shoulder, that will fight untill they're hamburger.

It's alot like if the Spartans had a million Spartans to hold the hot gates. Yeah you kill the first 300 but there's another 999,999,700 right behind them. Now, they can't aim 999,999,700 guns at you at once, but you still can't get through them to your objective. They're limited by the tunnels and space and so are you.

[Killer Cyborg]

It seems everyone is under the impression that it will be one big open field battle ("Let's get 'em, boys!").

I don't think that anybody has that impression.
The bugs are formidable, they have strong tactics on their own, they have decent weaponry (some with with excellent range), they can fly, and they have a lot of numbers.

Again, 50k demons would (if the 1.2 billion number is in the ballpark) need a 10,000:1 kill ratio.
That's far better than anybody in any war in history.
Yes, tactics and terrain help even the odds... but they only help even the odds. They don't change everything.

Now, if the 50k demons summon swarms of minions, then that changes the numbers a bit, helps even the odds.
But just citing terrain doesn't.

The Spartan 300 did a great job, but they weren't facing 4-armed critters who could grab their shield and get stabbed a bunch of times without letting go, while the critters behind that one moved in for the assist.
They were facing enemies that could be taken out of the picture with 1-2 decent hits from a spear or sword, and who didn't have the strength to chuck both warrior and shield back down the line into the swarm of enemy behind them.

[kaid]

I was talking about the terrain. The hive queen rooms are inhabited by the queen/young queens, and the biggest strongest and physically most dangerous defenders the hive possesses plus the usual boat ton of workers/nannies/nippers/diggers all in a room that is specifically designed and constructed with one goal in mind protect the queen. The terrain in the queens room favors the queen and her defenders and if you do manage a deep strike of entering into the chamber with a sizable force you are now stuck in between the queens body guards who are the biggest and strongest warriors in the hive and all other xiticix in the hive who are now going insane trying to defend the queen.

While it is probably the best way to attack the xiticix the attackers only major advantage in this situation is surprise and if they cannot manage to kill the queen in a minute or two the attack is likely going to have to port back out or die horribly.

It also takes away the numbers advantage. That's what I'm saying.

It seems everyone is under the impression that it will be one big open field battle ("Let's get 'em, boys!"). When in reality, no war works that way.

*hands you the SoT books*

In theory you're right. In application not so much.

Yes a small surgical strike into a Bug hive could slip in before the MILLIONS are massed against them, but as pointed out, being a small surgical strike team means you don't have sustainability.

Even with level 15 guys, they only have so many attacks per melee. The bugs have millions. Once you're in the hive and killing things they come. and they keep on coming till you're dead.

Unless you can some how Teleport straight into the queen's chamber, you're going to have to fight your way to her. So your small group, gets in. Starts fighting and the bugs mount a defense. Not the least of which is they can fill every tunnel leading into thequeen's chamber with 10,000 warriors, shoulder to shoulder, that will fight untill they're hamburger.

It's alot like if the Spartans had a million Spartans to hold the hot gates. Yeah you kill the first 300 but there's another 999,999,700 right behind them. Now, they can't aim 999,999,700 guns at you at once, but you still can't get through them to your objective. They're limited by the tunnels and space and so are you.

One must also realize in a xiticix hive once the engagement starts and every thing starts freaking out all the diggers and workers in the area are going to be working over time punching mored more tunnels into the queens chamber to flood it. Every round you are going to see more and more xiticix basically dropping from the ceiling like rain. Even without that the question is how big of a force can you port or tunnel your way directly into the queens chamber. It is very likely that a deep strike team even though they do limit some of the bugs force advantage are still heavily outnumbered. Like a bee hive the queen is likely to be almost literally coated with warriors/workers/nannies. The queen is the only must be protected at all costs part of the hive. Really the best ways I have seen players take xiticix queens has been with earth warlocks and earth elementals dropping small tactical nukes into the chamber in what was basically a suicide run or through the use of modified egg buster bots that triax used to kill off gargoyle eggs. The later does not kill the queen but one group used air drops of thousands of modifed micro bots to infiltrate the hive with tiny 1 MDC lasers. Each one had a payload of 6 shots and with that there were some larger recharger station bots where the lil micro bots could recharge at. Not a fast victory action but one that kept the hives from expanding till attrition could do its job.


Demon or devil success would likely depend on if they were willing to learn from xiticix hunters. Most of the demonic and devil forces are said to very much underestimate humanity and would such beings be willing to learn from "lesser beings" or would they be likely to at least initially think hey if these guys actually knew what they are talking about then why didn't they defeat the xiticix themselves.

I would expect at least for a good part of the initial conflict the devils/demons would attack xiticix in a similar fashion to how they attack gargoyles or similiar creatures which could wind up with them ending up very much in a situation over their heads and taking massive initial losses.

[Hystrix]

It seems everyone is under the impression that it will be one big open field battle ("Let's get 'em, boys!").

I don't think that anybody has that impression.
The bugs are formidable, they have strong tactics on their own, they have decent weaponry (some with with excellent range), they can fly, and they have a lot of numbers.

Again, 50k demons would (if the 1.2 billion number is in the ballpark) need a 10,000:1 kill ratio.
That's far better than anybody in any war in history.
Yes, tactics and terrain help even the odds... but they only help even the odds. They don't change everything.

Now, if the 50k demons summon swarms of minions, then that changes the numbers a bit, helps even the odds.
But just citing terrain doesn't.

The Spartan 300 did a great job, but they weren't facing 4-armed critters who could grab their shield and get stabbed a bunch of times without letting go, while the critters behind that one moved in for the assist.
They were facing enemies that could be taken out of the picture with 1-2 decent hits from a spear or sword, and who didn't have the strength to chuck both warrior and shield back down the line into the swarm of enemy behind them.

I'm gonna blame the thread necromancy on Apex.

For the record, KC, I respect your opinions. I always have.

I just don't see it this way.

First you don't have 1.2 billion Xiticix. Not really anyway. Look at the maps of the hive lands. The SIX RIVAL hives are spread out over a huge area. they are hundreds of miles apart.

Second, as I pointed out, they are six RIVAL hives. If there was a scenario where the hives converged they would fight each other, as well as the Deevils. I don't agree with the 1.2 billion number anyway, but I'll concede that point for the purposes of this discussion. Anyhoo, when the Deevils attack, they are facing one hive with 600 million at the most (that'd be the Duluth hive). Now that's still huge, I'll admit, but the Duluth hive is spread out over a large area (see Xiticix Invasion maps).

Third, I'm going to go with the Deevils using the Xiticix biggest disadvantage...their own instincts. A small group of Deevils/mortal followers can mask using Xiticix scent glands, and metamorphosis sneak in to the hives. I'm thinking there is a Nexus Deevil or two among them. They find the Queen's chamber. The Nexus Deevil gets close and teleports the Queen back to Dyval where she is easily dispatched. The other Deevils retreat using Dimensional Teleport. Any mortal followers...well I guess they are screwed. Anyway, I can see this tactic being repeated (or maybe even run at the same time). Tacking out the queens would not only stop any future growth it would send the hive into chaos.

Not really fourth, but another scenario might be a this: As I said before, the hivlands are huge. There have got to be some major Nexus points near or within the hives. Having a Nexus Deevil (I love those guys) open up a Rift to a rival hive. Those Xiticix would fight each other!

I guess I'm just thinking with the multi dimensional recourses the Deevils have, plus the one-dimensional tactics of the Xiticix equals some major advantages for the Deevils. Numbers be damned (get it? Deevils...damned..never mind).

Now, I don't believe the Deevils can wipe out the Xiticix without bringing in forces that would NOT be cost effective, but I do believe that they Deevils are dangerous...far beyond their numbers.

[Killer Cyborg]

How do the demons know to use scent glands?

[Glistam]

Maybe they read about it in a book?

[Warshield73]

Great review Zayz10, even though I disagree with a lot of your issues with the book it still had lots of good information.

I am having an issue with several of the posts on the subject of how war should go. I mean if you want a lesson on how difficult this is just look at WWII. I mean if you put half of what happened in WWII into a fictional story you would say "no way, too unrealistic" but they did in fact happen.

I mean there is no way that Stalin would believe Hitler's promises after all his anti-communist rhetoric and sign a non-aggression pact with him. Further, even if he did he would never leave his western border so undefended. But he did and he did.

No way Eisenhower would place what was arguably his best field commander, Patton, on a diversion instead of using him in the first round of D-day, but he did.

There is no way the Germans could be fooled by the fake invasion force of Patton's. I mean plywood cut outs of tanks, please. But they were fooled.

The simple fact is you can write almost anything you want into a war story because no matter what you put to paper (or computer screen), it can hardly be as unreal as what actually happens. When your talking sci-fi or futuristic, that goes double.

No matter what we think, according to the book, the CS does not know about Cuba. Is that realistic, absolutely. But, Kevin always talks about how personal gaming is so if this idea offends you, change it. It is your game after all.

And to clarify, it isn't like they've not had the better part of a ******* decade to get this all handled in the amount of books they pitched us on back when, y'know, GW was president. I don't care if every piece of equipment in Book 6 (/7 for those who count the prior Heroes book too) of this 5 book series is made of joygasm inducing happy glitter and I love them more than life itself...this stinks of greed (or desperation) or mismanagement/deception. "Get them in for the first $120, and surely they'll fork over that last $25 now that we've got them by the balls". Nooope. Not this time, Palladium. Sorry Carl, I promised to pick up the whole Minion War to show support for you years n years ago...and I'll still hold true and pick up book 5, but that's my line.

Wow, this might be just a bit over the top. It isn't at all possible that working on an existing set of books caused them to go in new directions and add some new things? Lots of books spawn an additional book or two. Look at the revised Vampire Kingdom.

[ffranceschi]

The good: Most of the artwork is great (one piece showing a NG Gun Wolf Robot laying waste to a demon is so good I want it as my computer's wallpaper). Lots of new content about the Minion War, some demonic new toys and characters to play with, some long awaited info on Soulmancy and it's nature, and an opportunity to truly look inside the darkest sorts of minds both human and demonic.

The bad: Some of the Soulmancy spells seem to be duplicates of some blood magic spells. The unexpected discovery that this is not the last book in the Minion War conflict as we had long believed it to be. NO instead all the info on the Coalition's counterattack and the new equipment they are going to be wielding is apparently getting pushed into another book titled Coalition States, Heroes of Humanity. A title which I might add seems to (at least in my mind) totally invalidate all but one of the multiple possible endings the book seemed to propose for the conflict.

So is it worth a purchase? I would say...yes. Despite the above mentioned flaws the book is still a great resource for all toys demonic or dark. Fair warning though this book is definitely not for the squeamish as many of the new spells and weapons are quite brutal and visceral in nature.

Overall Score: 4 stars out of 5

Great review. I agree with the score too. IMHO, this is the best book of the Minion War Series bar none. Congratulations to the author. By the way, I don´t mind that this is not the last book in the series and I think it is not something "bad" about the book (it could be for the next one if it happens to ruin something but let´s hope not).

Oh, The Gunwolf "in combat" is my wallpaper too