Megaverse in Flames Review

[Hystrix]

The biggest issue I have with a million more Soldiers is that it would take years to train them.

To train a million troops at once you would need hundreds of thousands of training and support troops. Not to mention some troops take longer to train. For example, IRL it takes a year to train most medics. Point being, these new troops would see the field until 6 months to a year after the start of this whole thing.

Also, keep in mind that Fort Benning (where most US Army combat arms Soldiers train) only has about 10,000 trainees at any given time.

I'm not a big fan of the CS pulling another million troops out of thin air, but even if they could they couldn't train the that fast.

[jaymz]

Depends really. If it is a matter of "here is your armour. point the gun that way and pull the trigger" then they could get them out there PDQ. Medics and such yes would take longer but not THAT long. Generally speaking you don't get a lot of "wounded" in Rifts. You get a lot of fatalities. Stormtroopers in SW never had medics that ever saw remember

[Sureshot]

Again I don't expect the CS to fall at the end of the series. No way should they suddenly be stronger either. Their fighting a war against the Xitcix. Against Tolkien. More of a post conflict but it's still going on IMO. The vampires in Mexico. Now demons and devils. A battle on hour fronts. They have to lose one or two territories IMO. Possibly the ones further away. If they are going to be given plot immunity st every opportunity then they might as well invade and defeat Atlantis.

[AlexM]

The book clearly states alliances will be formed, even among those who were, until now, enemies. Others will provide weapons and equipment on an unofficial basis, while still others will move in the shadows, help out, and disappear, only to help put out fires elsewhere. During World War II, 'green recruits' were sent in to make up for those lost. The Prosek/Coalition philosophy that humans are supreme will rally humans, and others, to defend Rifts Earth from a takeover by forces far worse than the Coalition. During World War II, the Aryan Waffen SS began accepting foreign volunteers. This is the situation and magic and technology will work together, unofficially, because everyone has a stake in this. A threat the likes of which has not been seen since the start of the Dark Age. Even D-Bees will protect what they have and fight with anyone who is also fighting for survival. As long as everyone's weapons are pointed in the same direction, you don't even have to speak the language. The Splugorth will provide third party aid. They have bigger egos than the Prosek Regime.





Alex Marciniszyn

[Spinachcat]

The unending illogic around the CS is one of the main reasons I don't run Rifts in North America. The infrastructure alone to support a "million soldiers" for just food, shelter and transportation is mindboggling, let alone trying to explain where the CS gets its eternal supply of raw resources to make an unending supply of MDC everything.

I love Carl's work, but this one sounds like a non-priority purchase for me. Like the Tolkeen books, there seems to be too much metaplot / canon to comfortably weave into my own games. Maybe as a backdrop flavor for future campaigns, but at the moment, this thread isn't inspiring me. Sad because I thought Dimensional Outbreak was a really fun book.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well in theory wouldn't it take a samus patrol a very short time to just buzz the island? I mean I'm not pulling out a map but a Super Sam can crank it up to 500mph. A Talon can kick along at MACH 1.5. I mean even if it's just a fly over it's going to be really really REALLY Hard to miss 70,000 to 2,000,000 Supernatural creatures. Even if they all duck at the same time you're going to see huge indications of their habitation.

Things like that do break immersion some for Rifts earth. I know in theory we're supposed to ignore such capability but in reality there's no real reason for the CS to be unaware of threats so close.

What would an areal fly over show?

Ok theres the city Cuidad de Diablo, but that might jusy look like a pirate base.

Demon/Deevils/Monsters all over the Island, that's just like EVERYWHERE else on Rifts Earth. There isn't anyway a fly by is going to tell them the organization info about the Island. Jeez, man, there are demonic aries a few hundred miles (or less) in the Magic Zone, why don't they nuke that too? Calgary has been a know area of Demonic activity for a long time. For that matter, how far are the Xiticix? Lazlo? How about Atlantis? I don't see the CS nuking any of that. Just because there is some remote Island with a bunch of Harpies and a pirate base or two isn't reason for such alarm. Again, the Deevils haven't anounced their presense to the World. They are quietly occuping an island (actually it's a chain of islands now) that is nearly a thousand miles from the nearest CS holding.

Ehh. You're down playing it a bit, "Oh what would they see from the air" "Just look like a pirate base"

Come on now. A pirate base with SEVENTY THOUSAND to TWO FLIPPING MILLION Demons/devils (Which ever are there) Those guys aren't tiny. You can't hide 700 humans from a fly over, 7,000 no way, 70,000??? No. No pirate base is going to have SEVENTY THOUSAND people in them. Remember this is Rifts earth. populations are low.

TWO MILLION Supernatural creatures are going to have a massive footprint. it's not like they're living in 100 story skyscrapers, and even if they were, 100 story skyscrapers would stand out. lol. As for why not nuking the magic zone, calgary, Lazlo... well because they're only a few 100 miles away from the CS. Even when the nukes were launched at Tolkeen it wasn't a sanctioned action I don't think. (Could be misremembering it's been a number of years) They don't nuke the bugs because at best it'd just knock down the MDC towers. 95% of the bug nests are below ground. It'd be tactically silly.

If there were 2,000,000 supernatural creatures sitting contained on a tiny island right there? Why NOT nuke um? The entire population of the CS, stretching from Canada to Texas down the middle of the old US, is what.. 16 million?

If there was 1/8th of your entire population, in hostile supernatural creatures, on a contained tiny island, far away, with very little chance of retaliation, why would you not?

[Pepsi Jedi]

The biggest issue I have with a million more Soldiers is that it would take years to train them.

To train a million troops at once you would need hundreds of thousands of training and support troops. Not to mention some troops take longer to train. For example, IRL it takes a year to train most medics. Point being, these new troops would see the field until 6 months to a year after the start of this whole thing.

Also, keep in mind that Fort Benning (where most US Army combat arms Soldiers train) only has about 10,000 trainees at any given time.

I'm not a big fan of the CS pulling another million troops out of thin air, but even if they could they couldn't train the that fast.

Look at it this way.

The CS has 'Millions' (Plural) Of troops already. This was established in CSWC. During the Tolkeen war, they recruited heavily out of the barrens. They lost alot but in the end, the pretty much 'broke even' due to the number of new recruits they took in and rolled rapidly to the front lines. Over the course of the war with Tolkeen, those 'new recruits' became hardened combat tested vetrans (Those that didn't die)

So the CS is roughly where they were at the start of the tolkeen war. (Stated in aftermath and elsewhere)

So.. at current they have a minimum of 2,000,000 troops. The minimum number to possess "Millions".

If they recruit 1M, they can take 1M of their standing 2M and put them into the war with the demons. While thy're doing this, they train up their 1M new recruits while holding the CS with their 1M other troops. Would it take thousands if not tens of thousands of troops to train 1M troops? Sure. But when you literally have 1,000,000 troops just holding the ground you already possess. You have plenty of training troops.

As for the training. The average training for a US troop doesn't take 6 months. Basic is 10 weeks for army, 8 weeks for navy, 6 and a half weeks for airforce, 12 weeks for Marines and 8 weeks for the coast guard. That "MILLION NEW RECRUITS" aren't going to be special forces trooper. And those training times are for people that can... you know.. READ. The CS training is going to be simplified. Even if you took the top number. 12 weeks. You're still talking 3 months from front door to front line. Not 6 months or a year. More than likely you're looking at 6 to 8 weeks. A month and a half to two months.

And that's if they don't PURPOSEFULLY CUT the training. If you're in a war with tens of thousands to millions of supernatural criters, you don't need to know EVERYTHING a 'standard troop' does. You need to know how to shoot, how to put on your armor, how to reload, and how to follow orders. The many minutia of military life will be glossed over untill the war is over.

[Killer Cyborg]

The unending illogic around the CS is one of the main reasons I don't run Rifts in North America. The infrastructure alone to support a "million soldiers" for just food, shelter and transportation is mindboggling, let alone trying to explain where the CS gets its eternal supply of raw resources to make an unending supply of MDC everything.

North Korea supports a million soldiers.
North Korea is about the size of Pennsylvania (46k square miles).
North Korea doesn't have futuristic technology.

The Coalition, on the other hand, occupies a good chunk of the United States.
The State of Chi-Town alone encompasses northern Illinois and all of Iowa. That's about 75,000 square miles right there.

Where do they get their raw resources?
They occupy about 1/3 of the US, and have bases at other resources areas.
Their main building material appears to be ceramics, which means that their primary resource need is clay.

Of all the stuff in Rifts, the CS's resources and capabilities are some of the more reasonable.

[Killer Cyborg]

TWO MILLION Supernatural creatures are going to have a massive footprint.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with you on this one.

[Killer Cyborg]

The book clearly states alliances will be formed, even among those who were, until now, enemies.

See, that right there was one of my first thoughts for explaining the troop surge, or at least part of it.
Any number of small kingdoms joining the CS due to the crisis would mean more net troops for the CS.

[Glistam]

It's starting to sound like "Heroes of Humanity" might be a good opportunity to explore a world where the Coalition saved Humanity, but falls in the process. Thus the title could refer to how the Coalition is remembered in its last hours as it rallies and fights against the surge of evil that ultimately destroys it. And a world where the Coalition falls "heroically", what would that look like?

Suddenly, I'm intrigued.

[Sureshot]

I like how people point to modern countries and try to make it look like the CS can field such a big army. Sure North Korea has all that. Except North Korea has not been hit a Rifts Eruption that nearly wiped out the planet. Nor had to faces two hundred or more years of humanity dark ages. Or ever lost all it's infrastructure. I don't think North Korea would be in good shape if something like the Rifts came to pass.

I guess I will have to suffer in what more than likely be another very easily author generated CS walking over everyone SOT ending. At least I can mine the books for ideas and new toys.

It's starting to sound like "Heroes of Humanity" might be a good opportunity to explore a world where the Coalition saved Humanity, but falls in the process. Thus the title could refer to how the Coalition is remembered in its last hours as it rallies and fights against the surge of evil that ultimately destroys it. And a world where the Coalition falls "heroically", what would that look like?

Suddenly, I'm intrigued.

I don't think the CS should fall. Severly weakened or at least hurting. Sticking their nose into everything. Fighting enemies on multiple fronts. Even with allies it should not be a easy fight imo. If it is it's just attempt to protect the CS because of fan popularity. I could be very well wrong about it being another railroad. Time will tell.


How are the Cyberknights doing in all this.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

The book opens with CS field reports of unusual activity. By page 14, Emperor Prosek publicly sounds the alarm, and "Within two weeks, word of mouth has spread to all corners of the continent." "Within a week, more than a million will have joined the Coalition Armed Forces." From page 15: "The minions of Hades and Dyval dare not invade Atlantis, lest they bring down the full wrath of the mighty Splugorth." But that does not mean the Splugorth are not acting.

Alex Marciniszyn

so much for that desolate post-apoc world huh? A million MORE soldiers...yeah, whatever.

I am one of the people who argues time and time again in favor of the CS population having a high number of soldiers.

But yeah, I agree that does seem like a lot.
I can come up with ways that it would make sense... but I'm hoping that Palladium will have already done that, and that I won't have to.

As for the "post-apocalyptic world," the original tone was lost a LONG time ago.
I think a lot of the original vibe was destroyed by the New West books, and when your average Vagabond starts off with MDC armor?
Forget about it.

I just find it funny that they still try and sell it as thus though.

[Killer Cyborg]

I like how people point to modern countries and try to make it look like the CS can field such a big army. Sure North Korea has all that. Except North Korea has not been hit a Rifts Eruption that nearly wiped out the planet.

And they don't have access to Golden Age technology.
And they don't have the existence of demons to motivate and unify them.
There are a LOT of differences, really.
Which is why it's absurd for people to find the size of their army so implausible.

I guess I will have to suffer in what more than likely be another very easily author generated CS walking over everyone SOT ending.

Possibly.
Hopefully not, though.

[Dreamstreamer]

It's starting to sound like "Heroes of Humanity" might be a good opportunity to explore a world where the Coalition saved Humanity, but falls in the process. Thus the title could refer to how the Coalition is remembered in its last hours as it rallies and fights against the surge of evil that ultimately destroys it. And a world where the Coalition falls "heroically", what would that look like?

You mean like Chaos Earth and NEMA? I guess history does have a way of repeating itself...

[Hystrix]

Well in theory wouldn't it take a samus patrol a very short time to just buzz the island? I mean I'm not pulling out a map but a Super Sam can crank it up to 500mph. A Talon can kick along at MACH 1.5. I mean even if it's just a fly over it's going to be really really REALLY Hard to miss 70,000 to 2,000,000 Supernatural creatures. Even if they all duck at the same time you're going to see huge indications of their habitation.

Things like that do break immersion some for Rifts earth. I know in theory we're supposed to ignore such capability but in reality there's no real reason for the CS to be unaware of threats so close.

What would an areal fly over show?

Ok theres the city Cuidad de Diablo, but that might jusy look like a pirate base.

Demon/Deevils/Monsters all over the Island, that's just like EVERYWHERE else on Rifts Earth. There isn't anyway a fly by is going to tell them the organization info about the Island. Jeez, man, there are demonic aries a few hundred miles (or less) in the Magic Zone, why don't they nuke that too? Calgary has been a know area of Demonic activity for a long time. For that matter, how far are the Xiticix? Lazlo? How about Atlantis? I don't see the CS nuking any of that. Just because there is some remote Island with a bunch of Harpies and a pirate base or two isn't reason for such alarm. Again, the Deevils haven't anounced their presense to the World. They are quietly occuping an island (actually it's a chain of islands now) that is nearly a thousand miles from the nearest CS holding.

Ehh. You're down playing it a bit, "Oh what would they see from the air" "Just look like a pirate base"

Come on now. A pirate base with SEVENTY THOUSAND to TWO FLIPPING MILLION Demons/devils (Which ever are there) Those guys aren't tiny. You can't hide 700 humans from a fly over, 7,000 no way, 70,000??? No. No pirate base is going to have SEVENTY THOUSAND people in them. Remember this is Rifts earth. populations are low.

TWO MILLION Supernatural creatures are going to have a massive footprint. it's not like they're living in 100 story skyscrapers, and even if they were, 100 story skyscrapers would stand out. lol. As for why not nuking the magic zone, calgary, Lazlo... well because they're only a few 100 miles away from the CS. Even when the nukes were launched at Tolkeen it wasn't a sanctioned action I don't think. (Could be misremembering it's been a number of years) They don't nuke the bugs because at best it'd just knock down the MDC towers. 95% of the bug nests are below ground. It'd be tactically silly.

If there were 2,000,000 supernatural creatures sitting contained on a tiny island right there? Why NOT nuke um? The entire population of the CS, stretching from Canada to Texas down the middle of the old US, is what.. 16 million?

If there was 1/8th of your entire population, in hostile supernatural creatures, on a contained tiny island, far away, with very little chance of retaliation, why would you not?

I don't know dude.

How great is the CS recon?

Remember those 2 million Devils are 1000 miles outside of CS territory. What's the reason for the CS who just fought a two front war against neiboring kingdoms to search out some random island over a thousand miles outside of CS territory?

The CS is far from omniscient.

Regardless, the CS isn't aware of them according to the books so...

[Hystrix]

The biggest issue I have with a million more Soldiers is that it would take years to train them.

To train a million troops at once you would need hundreds of thousands of training and support troops. Not to mention some troops take longer to train. For example, IRL it takes a year to train most medics. Point being, these new troops would see the field until 6 months to a year after the start of this whole thing.

Also, keep in mind that Fort Benning (where most US Army combat arms Soldiers train) only has about 10,000 trainees at any given time.

I'm not a big fan of the CS pulling another million troops out of thin air, but even if they could they couldn't train the that fast.

Look at it this way.

The CS has 'Millions' (Plural) Of troops already. This was established in CSWC. During the Tolkeen war, they recruited heavily out of the barrens. They lost alot but in the end, the pretty much 'broke even' due to the number of new recruits they took in and rolled rapidly to the front lines. Over the course of the war with Tolkeen, those 'new recruits' became hardened combat tested vetrans (Those that didn't die)

So the CS is roughly where they were at the start of the tolkeen war. (Stated in aftermath and elsewhere)

So.. at current they have a minimum of 2,000,000 troops. The minimum number to possess "Millions".

If they recruit 1M, they can take 1M of their standing 2M and put them into the war with the demons. While thy're doing this, they train up their 1M new recruits while holding the CS with their 1M other troops. Would it take thousands if not tens of thousands of troops to train 1M troops? Sure. But when you literally have 1,000,000 troops just holding the ground you already possess. You have plenty of training troops.

As for the training. The average training for a US troop doesn't take 6 months. Basic is 10 weeks for army, 8 weeks for navy, 6 and a half weeks for airforce, 12 weeks for Marines and 8 weeks for the coast guard. That "MILLION NEW RECRUITS" aren't going to be special forces trooper. And those training times are for people that can... you know.. READ. The CS training is going to be simplified. Even if you took the top number. 12 weeks. You're still talking 3 months from front door to front line. Not 6 months or a year. More than likely you're looking at 6 to 8 weeks. A month and a half to two months.

And that's if they don't PURPOSEFULLY CUT the training. If you're in a war with tens of thousands to millions of supernatural criters, you don't need to know EVERYTHING a 'standard troop' does. You need to know how to shoot, how to put on your armor, how to reload, and how to follow orders. The many minutia of military life will be glossed over untill the war is over.

Hey, I'm ok with the CS having more troops, but it still takes a while.

BTW, there is basic training and then there is advanced training. Each MOS would have its own AIT, which means many MOSs would train longer than six months.

In the case of infantry, you are right, its about 4 months with basic and AIT combined.

[Hotrod]

First off, thanks to the OP for the review.

Second, I've known for a while that Heroes of Humanity was on the way as one of the Minion Wars series. Kevin mentioned it in a conversation with me at Fanfare last year. I'll be curious to see what they do with it.

Third, when it comes to army sizes, a hundred thousand or a million is just a statistic. There are so many other factors that come into play, and where the supernatural and future technologies are concerned, many of our baseline assumptions may be invalid. I certainly have no problem with an army that has to grow by leaps and bounds in a short period of time. That's happened many times throughout history, and many of those "thrown-together" armies turned out to be far more successful than one might think. Spartans might have had a fearsome reputation, but their society was destroyed by an army of Theban yeomen that crushed their vaunted elite infantry, overran Laconia, and freed the Helots. If it weren't for Alexander the Great coming a generation later, a lot more people might know the name Epaminondas.

[cyber-yukongil v2.5]

it has nothing to do with their technology or training or lack thereof. It has to do with the demolishing of the verisimilitude of the setting as a post-apoc world where humanity has nearly been driven extinct. I mean I know they just keep on destroying that with each new world book that introduces "RECENTLY DISCOVERED SUPER CIVILIZATION AND THEIR EPIC WEAPONS!!!!!1111!!!", but that doesn't mean that I can't hate it everytime it comes up.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well in theory wouldn't it take a samus patrol a very short time to just buzz the island? I mean I'm not pulling out a map but a Super Sam can crank it up to 500mph. A Talon can kick along at MACH 1.5. I mean even if it's just a fly over it's going to be really really REALLY Hard to miss 70,000 to 2,000,000 Supernatural creatures. Even if they all duck at the same time you're going to see huge indications of their habitation.

Things like that do break immersion some for Rifts earth. I know in theory we're supposed to ignore such capability but in reality there's no real reason for the CS to be unaware of threats so close.

What would an areal fly over show?

Ok theres the city Cuidad de Diablo, but that might jusy look like a pirate base.

Demon/Deevils/Monsters all over the Island, that's just like EVERYWHERE else on Rifts Earth. There isn't anyway a fly by is going to tell them the organization info about the Island. Jeez, man, there are demonic aries a few hundred miles (or less) in the Magic Zone, why don't they nuke that too? Calgary has been a know area of Demonic activity for a long time. For that matter, how far are the Xiticix? Lazlo? How about Atlantis? I don't see the CS nuking any of that. Just because there is some remote Island with a bunch of Harpies and a pirate base or two isn't reason for such alarm. Again, the Deevils haven't anounced their presense to the World. They are quietly occuping an island (actually it's a chain of islands now) that is nearly a thousand miles from the nearest CS holding.

Ehh. You're down playing it a bit, "Oh what would they see from the air" "Just look like a pirate base"

Come on now. A pirate base with SEVENTY THOUSAND to TWO FLIPPING MILLION Demons/devils (Which ever are there) Those guys aren't tiny. You can't hide 700 humans from a fly over, 7,000 no way, 70,000??? No. No pirate base is going to have SEVENTY THOUSAND people in them. Remember this is Rifts earth. populations are low.

TWO MILLION Supernatural creatures are going to have a massive footprint. it's not like they're living in 100 story skyscrapers, and even if they were, 100 story skyscrapers would stand out. lol. As for why not nuking the magic zone, calgary, Lazlo... well because they're only a few 100 miles away from the CS. Even when the nukes were launched at Tolkeen it wasn't a sanctioned action I don't think. (Could be misremembering it's been a number of years) They don't nuke the bugs because at best it'd just knock down the MDC towers. 95% of the bug nests are below ground. It'd be tactically silly.

If there were 2,000,000 supernatural creatures sitting contained on a tiny island right there? Why NOT nuke um? The entire population of the CS, stretching from Canada to Texas down the middle of the old US, is what.. 16 million?

If there was 1/8th of your entire population, in hostile supernatural creatures, on a contained tiny island, far away, with very little chance of retaliation, why would you not?

I don't know dude.

How great is the CS recon?

Remember those 2 million Devils are 1000 miles outside of CS territory. What's the reason for the CS who just fought a two front war against neiboring kingdoms to search out some random island over a thousand miles outside of CS territory?

The CS is far from omniscient.

Regardless, the CS isn't aware of them according to the books so...

It's been a few years since I've cracked open the book, but if memory serves, the CS has a blue water navy with aircraft carriers and subs, I think they have a naval base somewhere in the gulf. Those aircraft carriers don't just park in port they go out and patrol, and even if they didn't 1000miles out side of their range is a 2 hour flight for a supersam. They might not fly over cuba every day but even if it's once a week or once a month you're going to notice 2,000,000 anything co-chillin' down there.

[Hotrod]

it has nothing to do with their technology or training or lack thereof. It has to do with the demolishing of the verisimilitude of the setting as a post-apoc world where humanity has nearly been driven extinct. I mean I know they just keep on destroying that with each new world book that introduces "RECENTLY DISCOVERED SUPER CIVILIZATION AND THEIR EPIC WEAPONS!!!!!1111!!!", but that doesn't mean that I can't hate it everytime it comes up.

I share your sentiment.

Rifts is at its best where the setting is refreshingly different from what we know or would expect. The USA has become a fascist state, vampires rule Mexico, Atlantis has reappeared and is the dominion of interdimensional slavers, and Europe is a massive battleground in which the Germans are the good guys. That stuff rules. It challenges present perspectives and invites the player, GM, and casual reader to contemplate a very different reality.

Rifts is at its worst when it takes a cultural/historical cliche and makes it MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts is at its best where the setting is refreshingly different from what we know or would expect. The USA has become a fascist state, vampires rule Mexico, Atlantis has reappeared and is the dominion of interdimensional slavers, and Europe is a massive battleground in which the Germans are the good guys. That stuff rules. It challenges present perspectives and invites the player, GM, and casual reader to contemplate a very different reality.

Rifts is at its worst when it takes a cultural/historical cliche and makes it MDC.

Exactly.

[Bood Samel]

I never ran SOT and I doubt I'll ever run this, but I might check it out and use it as background material. Like I did the SOT. I'd play in it though, I'd just never run it as a GM. I do like swetting updates though and I'm interested in seeing what the long term implications for the CS and NA are. I really don't want the CS to stop being what they are. If they get toned down and sanitized I'd completely give up on palladium.

[NMI]

I never ran SOT If they get toned down and sanitized...

Nothing can be further from the truth. Having read over Megaverse in Flames & Northern Gun 2 while manning the booth at Gen Con, I've learned that if anything, the Demon/Deevil invasion of Earth [not just North America, but the entire planet] has re-energized and focused the CS, Northern Gun and well pretty much everyone to take some sort of action in this invasion. I seriously doubt that the CS will be like "Awe, look what has happened? Maybe we should all be nice, become tree huggers and play nice with all races of Earth". I think it will cause them to strengthen/ harden their stance on the subject of magic, magic users, the demonic, D-bees, etc...

[Jeremy_Black]

it has nothing to do with their technology or training or lack thereof. It has to do with the demolishing of the verisimilitude of the setting as a post-apoc world where humanity has nearly been driven extinct. I mean I know they just keep on destroying that with each new world book that introduces "RECENTLY DISCOVERED SUPER CIVILIZATION AND THEIR EPIC WEAPONS!!!!!1111!!!", but that doesn't mean that I can't hate it everytime it comes up.

I share your sentiment.

Rifts is at its best where the setting is refreshingly different from what we know or would expect. The USA has become a fascist state, vampires rule Mexico, Atlantis has reappeared and is the dominion of interdimensional slavers, and Europe is a massive battleground in which the Germans are the good guys. That stuff rules. It challenges present perspectives and invites the player, GM, and casual reader to contemplate a very different reality.

Rifts is at its worst when it takes a cultural/historical cliche and makes it MDC.

Very well said! Though I must admit as a guilty pleasure I do enjoy the occasional cliche made into MDC and thrown into the mix.

-A

[Hystrix]

It's been a few years since I've cracked open the book, but if memory serves, the CS has a blue water navy with aircraft carriers and subs, I think they have a naval base somewhere in the gulf. Those aircraft carriers don't just park in port they go out and patrol, and even if they didn't 1000miles out side of their range is a 2 hour flight for a supersam. They might not fly over cuba every day but even if it's once a week or once a month you're going to notice 2,000,000 anything co-chillin' down there.

You are thinking of the Brown Water Navy and they are stationed in the Mississippi and its tributaries. They aren't going near Cuba.

Now the 2nd Navy which is stationed in the Gulf could. However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy. Its not exactly a great resource right now.

Also, and maybe I should have lead with this, but most Devils can use metamorphosis. Its what they do. Plus it talks about there extensive use of the cave system in Cuba. These guys aren't all out sunbathing. They have been there for decades. There pretty good at concealing there position.

Look maybe a few Sims flying over Cuba could get some data, but according to the book they are pretty hidden.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's been a few years since I've cracked open the book, but if memory serves, the CS has a blue water navy with aircraft carriers and subs, I think they have a naval base somewhere in the gulf. Those aircraft carriers don't just park in port they go out and patrol, and even if they didn't 1000miles out side of their range is a 2 hour flight for a supersam. They might not fly over cuba every day but even if it's once a week or once a month you're going to notice 2,000,000 anything co-chillin' down there.

You are thinking of the Brown Water Navy and they are stationed in the Mississippi and its tributaries. They aren't going near Cuba.

Now the 2nd Navy which is stationed in the Gulf could. However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy. Its not exactly a great resource right now.

Also, and maybe I should have lead with this, but most Devils can use metamorphosis. Its what they do. Plus it talks about there extensive use of the cave system in Cuba. These guys aren't all out sunbathing. They have been there for decades. There pretty good at concealing there position.

Look maybe a few Sims flying over Cuba could get some data, but according to the book they are pretty hidden.

No. I'm thinking of Blue Water navy with aircraft carriers, subs and jets. It's in the book, cleverly titled. CS NAVY. If the supernaturals have been down there for decades then they've been there before the CS/FQ war.

And Metamorphosis is all well and good but they're not all shape changing into action figured and all hiding under logs when something comes blasting along at high altitude at 500mph. Just because you "Can' Change doesn't mean you spend 100% of your life as something else. You're usually going to be in your true form. Especially if you're on an island with millions of your peers.

Even if they're not out sunbathing, there's still going to be signs of habitation. 2,000,000 anything is going to have a heck of a footprint. Think of how much 2,000,000 supernatural (anything) is going to eat. How much they're going to beat down the jungle when they move.

It's not a HUGE deal. Much of North America is under the same sort of 'Problem'. when you have jets that can go MACH 1.5, why is ANY of it surprising? A few hours flight and you're there.

[jaymz]

However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy.

Correction, they lost 75% of the first fleet during their "war" with FQ, which iirc does no include the three aircraft carriers or any of the nuclear subs. The first fleet was stationed in the St Lawrence and in FQ essentially. A fleet manned by largely FQ citizens. That fleet consisted of cruisers and destroyers etc and no deep water vessels per se. The 2nd fleet is fully equipped and manned. That is the fleet patrolling out in the Atlantic right now. That fleet could have easily kept an eye on Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean with just weekly fly overs. If anything, logic would dictate they would for the fact that Cuba is not that far away and could easily be seen as a place to hide from the CS.

[Hystrix]

However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy.

Correction, they lost 75% of the first fleet during their "war" with FQ, which iirc does no include the three aircraft carriers or any of the nuclear subs. The first fleet was stationed in the St Lawrence and in FQ essentially. A fleet manned by largely FQ citizens. That fleet consisted of cruisers and destroyers etc and no deep water vessels per se. The 2nd fleet is fully equipped and manned. That is the fleet patrolling out in the Atlantic right now. That fleet could have easily kept an eye on Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean with just weekly fly overs. If anything, logic would dictate they would for the fact that Cuba is not that far away and could easily be seen as a place to hide from the CS.

Don't you think they'd move some ships around so the 1st fleet had something in it? You know, rather than have a fully stocked 2nd Fleet and a nearly exhausted 1st?

Point is, the whole Navy was affected.

[Pepsi Jedi]

However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy.

Correction, they lost 75% of the first fleet during their "war" with FQ, which iirc does no include the three aircraft carriers or any of the nuclear subs. The first fleet was stationed in the St Lawrence and in FQ essentially. A fleet manned by largely FQ citizens. That fleet consisted of cruisers and destroyers etc and no deep water vessels per se. The 2nd fleet is fully equipped and manned. That is the fleet patrolling out in the Atlantic right now. That fleet could have easily kept an eye on Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean with just weekly fly overs. If anything, logic would dictate they would for the fact that Cuba is not that far away and could easily be seen as a place to hide from the CS.

Don't you think they'd move some ships around so the 1st fleet had something in it? You know, rather than have a fully stocked 2nd Fleet and a nearly exhausted 1st?

Point is, the whole Navy was affected.

FQ are allies now. They can use the ships they "Took" From the CS to patrol that area.

sure, in theory they're going to move some ships around but the point remains, 1) They DO have a blue water navy and 2) With supersonic aircraft, and 3) Cuba's close enough for Cubans to make the crossing today in fruit crates. It's not that hard to get there if you can fly between 500mph and MACH1.5.

[jaymz]

However, per Aftermath, the CS lost nearly 75% of the Navy.

Correction, they lost 75% of the first fleet during their "war" with FQ, which iirc does no include the three aircraft carriers or any of the nuclear subs. The first fleet was stationed in the St Lawrence and in FQ essentially. A fleet manned by largely FQ citizens. That fleet consisted of cruisers and destroyers etc and no deep water vessels per se. The 2nd fleet is fully equipped and manned. That is the fleet patrolling out in the Atlantic right now. That fleet could have easily kept an eye on Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean with just weekly fly overs. If anything, logic would dictate they would for the fact that Cuba is not that far away and could easily be seen as a place to hide from the CS.

Don't you think they'd move some ships around so the 1st fleet had something in it? You know, rather than have a fully stocked 2nd Fleet and a nearly exhausted 1st?

Point is, the whole Navy was affected.

Sure, if you wanted to risk facing a superior in experience opponent that is as well armed as you. Not to mention, the brown water navy can be used for what the CS would need for now as great lake patrol. With FQ as allies, the CS has no need to patrol the St Lawrence or the Gulf of the St Lawrence as FQ will already be doing that. They can take their time. Had the "war" with FQ continued, I have no doubt the CS would have rearranged assets as such, but seeing as right after the Sorcerer's Revenge, FQ proved themselves worthy allies and showed Karl the error of his ways, they do not need to do so.... yet. With new Carriers and subs being built, I have no doubt they will be earmarked for future 1st fleet deployment.

However, I was merely correcting your statement that the CS lost 75% of it's navy, which they had not.

[kaid]

Depends really. If it is a matter of "here is your armour. point the gun that way and pull the trigger" then they could get them out there PDQ. Medics and such yes would take longer but not THAT long. Generally speaking you don't get a lot of "wounded" in Rifts. You get a lot of fatalities. Stormtroopers in SW never had medics that ever saw remember

Also if they wind up recruiting a lot of wildnerness type folks and mercs/ex mercs most of the recruits should at least be semi decent for basic infantry work and know how to shoot. If you look at big conflits like WW2 they started cycling people into the war directly from bootcamp even though casualties from these fresh recruits was pretty terrifying those who survive catch on pretty quick.

As for plot immunity at the point of megaverse in flames we are still a short time before hell really cuts loose. Most of the hell pit descriptions are showing them in the final stages of completion and the ball won't really drop fully until those beach heads get established.

One interesting thing though if Lord Duscon does throw in with one of the factions in the minion war it may wind up being a point of compromise between dweomer and lazlo and the CS teaming up to take them out or if lazlo and dweomer join up to take out lord duscon that could send an interesting message to the CS.

[kaid]

I like how people point to modern countries and try to make it look like the CS can field such a big army. Sure North Korea has all that. Except North Korea has not been hit a Rifts Eruption that nearly wiped out the planet. Nor had to faces two hundred or more years of humanity dark ages. Or ever lost all it's infrastructure. I don't think North Korea would be in good shape if something like the Rifts came to pass.

I guess I will have to suffer in what more than likely be another very easily author generated CS walking over everyone SOT ending. At least I can mine the books for ideas and new toys.

It's starting to sound like "Heroes of Humanity" might be a good opportunity to explore a world where the Coalition saved Humanity, but falls in the process. Thus the title could refer to how the Coalition is remembered in its last hours as it rallies and fights against the surge of evil that ultimately destroys it. And a world where the Coalition falls "heroically", what would that look like?

Suddenly, I'm intrigued.

I don't think the CS should fall. Severly weakened or at least hurting. Sticking their nose into everything. Fighting enemies on multiple fronts. Even with allies it should not be a easy fight imo. If it is it's just attempt to protect the CS because of fan popularity. I could be very well wrong about it being another railroad. Time will tell.


How are the Cyberknights doing in all this.

One thing to note about the CS population is while the population in general is really low and life is very short on average for most people in the rifts world the CS population has life expectancies almost a quarter longer than current modern day lifespans with most of that being health and productive time. If one extrapolates out both longer duration of time in which females can have babies and the common human response to dangerous environments which is crank out more kids the population levels are not drastically out of line with what one could expect.

Combining future tech recycling capabilities combined with the CS having control over a pretty large segement of the country and does trade with iron heart and NG they do have pretty reasonable access to some of the most common materials needed. Lots of iron mines in this part of the country especially up by iron heart and the upper peninsula is well known for its iron and copper mines. Combine that with potentially "mining" city ruins and old landfills would go a long way. As for feeding the population in lone star they already talked about how the CS has used the super genetic capabilities lone star gave to them to higher quality cattle and crops that are both healthier and more bountiful.


The cyberknights are reuniting over the more obvious threats and are looking at moving in force on Calgary as well as doing their normal protect and defend. The fight vs the demons and devils will eliminate the rift between the factions in the cyber knights. Now wether or not the cyberknights survive this conflict is the real question but if they go down they go down as a unified force doing what they trained to do.

[Glistam]

The cyberknights are reuniting over the more obvious threats and are looking at moving in force on Calgary as well as doing their normal protect and defend. The fight vs the demons and devils will eliminate the rift between the factions in the cyber knights. Now wether or not the cyberknights survive this conflict is the real question but if they go down they go down as a unified force doing what they trained to do.

Wait, I thought Cyberknights were trained to fight technological foes?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I like how people point to modern countries and try to make it look like the CS can field such a big army. Sure North Korea has all that. Except North Korea has not been hit a Rifts Eruption that nearly wiped out the planet. Nor had to faces two hundred or more years of humanity dark ages. Or ever lost all it's infrastructure. I don't think North Korea would be in good shape if something like the Rifts came to pass.

I guess I will have to suffer in what more than likely be another very easily author generated CS walking over everyone SOT ending. At least I can mine the books for ideas and new toys.

It's starting to sound like "Heroes of Humanity" might be a good opportunity to explore a world where the Coalition saved Humanity, but falls in the process. Thus the title could refer to how the Coalition is remembered in its last hours as it rallies and fights against the surge of evil that ultimately destroys it. And a world where the Coalition falls "heroically", what would that look like?

Suddenly, I'm intrigued.

I don't think the CS should fall. Severly weakened or at least hurting. Sticking their nose into everything. Fighting enemies on multiple fronts. Even with allies it should not be a easy fight imo. If it is it's just attempt to protect the CS because of fan popularity. I could be very well wrong about it being another railroad. Time will tell.


How are the Cyberknights doing in all this.

One thing to note about the CS population is while the population in general is really low and life is very short on average for most people in the rifts world the CS population has life expectancies almost a quarter longer than current modern day lifespans with most of that being health and productive time. If one extrapolates out both longer duration of time in which females can have babies and the common human response to dangerous environments which is crank out more kids the population levels are not drastically out of line with what one could expect.

Combining future tech recycling capabilities combined with the CS having control over a pretty large segement of the country and does trade with iron heart and NG they do have pretty reasonable access to some of the most common materials needed. Lots of iron mines in this part of the country especially up by iron heart and the upper peninsula is well known for its iron and copper mines. Combine that with potentially "mining" city ruins and old landfills would go a long way. As for feeding the population in lone star they already talked about how the CS has used the super genetic capabilities lone star gave to them to higher quality cattle and crops that are both healthier and more bountiful.


The cyberknights are reuniting over the more obvious threats and are looking at moving in force on Calgary as well as doing their normal protect and defend. The fight vs the demons and devils will eliminate the rift between the factions in the cyber knights. Now wether or not the cyberknights survive this conflict is the real question but if they go down they go down as a unified force doing what they trained to do.

Small point, but the "Lifespan" of someone in the CS is a bit of a contested point. As established in Lone Star it's pretty long, but one of the more recent books... NG1 maybe? Stated it was very very very very much shorter.

I think this is because almost two decades later, they forgot what they'd already written in a book they had read/written decades previous, but the numbers established first, don't have the life spans in the CS being low. It was a few pages of information on it and thought out.

The later entry has them like a third as much, and seems to ingore the previous statements with no explination. I go with the original ones as like I said they were thought out and established decades ago as the norm. (Life spans for lazlo and such are there too )

[kaid]

Ah you are right the NG2 number is lower but still looking like around a decade longer average life expectancy than what we currently have and much longer for upper class folks.

NG2 lists the life expectancy of 75 +2d6 for average life expectancy. I believe the modern life expectancy is like 72 or so. Plus the addition of cybernetics/bionics and advanced health care most of that life is healthy and productive. Ruling class life average expectancy listed at 95+1d4x10

It honestly would almost make some sense for the life expectancy to drop in the CS states from the previously stated numbers mainly due to war losses from the tolkeen conflict. I think the old numbers though had them in the 100+ range.

[kaid]

HAHA or not apparently life expectancies have jumped since I last looked and looks like CS life expectancy as of NG2 is about what we currently have right around 80 years or so old. It would make sense though that the number gets skewed a bit due to the high percentage of their population that is in the military to field the army size they have I would imagine their male to female populations likely is a bit off kilter due to more men likely joining the military than women.

[Killer Cyborg]

If somebody can cite the relevant passages, they might not actually conflict.
Is the Lonestar passage describing the "average CS citizen," or the "average Chi-Town citizen," or the "average citizen in the upper levels of Chi-Town?"

[The Beast]

The cyberknights are reuniting over the more obvious threats and are looking at moving in force on Calgary as well as doing their normal protect and defend. The fight vs the demons and devils will eliminate the rift between the factions in the cyber knights. Now wether or not the cyberknights survive this conflict is the real question but if they go down they go down as a unified force doing what they trained to do.

Wait, I thought Cyberknights were trained to fight technological foes?

Yeah, they keep flip-flopping on whether they fight supernatural or technological foes...

[Daniel Stoker]

They fight all foes of justice etc... they're just stat-ed out/trained to be really good against foes who use technology.


Daniel Stoker

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ah you are right the NG2 number is lower but still looking like around a decade longer average life expectancy than what we currently have and much longer for upper class folks.

NG2 lists the life expectancy of 75 +2d6 for average life expectancy. I believe the modern life expectancy is like 72 or so. Plus the addition of cybernetics/bionics and advanced health care most of that life is healthy and productive. Ruling class life average expectancy listed at 95+1d4x10

It honestly would almost make some sense for the life expectancy to drop in the CS states from the previously stated numbers mainly due to war losses from the tolkeen conflict. I think the old numbers though had them in the 100+ range.

Haven't read it in quite a while but if memory serves, NG2 has that for people that live the high life in the mega cities but have a life expectancy of 20s to 30s for anyone out side there. Where the CS had it up over 100, 120 or something.

I wrote out posts on it in the past but honestly don't have the push to dig it out.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If somebody can cite the relevant passages, they might not actually conflict.
Is the Lonestar passage describing the "average CS citizen," or the "average Chi-Town citizen," or the "average citizen in the upper levels of Chi-Town?"

The Lone Star numbers do differentiate between the average citizen and the 'Upper levels of Chi town"

*Digs it up*

Page 68 Lone star

Pertaining to the CS
"the typical human citizen an average life span of 100-130 (100-140 in Lazlo, 120-150 years in the NCR, and 140-200 years in the Republic of Japan), compared to an average life span of 45-90 years in the wilderness and "uncivilized" places (by CS standards, that's any place outside the States"

It goes on to later say on page 69

"A new lease on life. Before the Great Cataclysm, the life expectancy of the average American (and most of the old Empires) was 200! A person around 100 looked and felt like a person in their late thirties. A person between 120-150 looked to be in his forties or fifties and those approaching 200 looked to be in their sixties. More importantly, the ind stayed clear, sharp and vibrant till the end! This technology grew from man's understanding of his own genetic code and how the body works on a molecular level. This fabulous technology has been in the possession of the Coalition States, or more to the point, Emperor Prosek, for 30 years. It has been locked away as top secret and for being too experimental (hardly; but it's a good cover). The Emperor has reserved its use for himself and his most trusted, elite heads of government, including, but not limited to, General Cabot (currently 83, looks 63 and has the vitality of a man half his age; he could live and serve the CS for another 50 years, as could the Emperor), General Ross Under hill, General Charles Reed Baxter,
General Loni Kashbrook, General Thomas Lopez, and General Apollo Lucitonis, as well as Karl Prosek's wife (who thinks she's taking special vitamins), and Doctor Desmond Bradford. Of course, Joseph Prosek II will be eligible for (and knows of) this life extending treatment, but its not generally necessary till a person reaches his late fifties."

[Pepsi Jedi]

These are in contrast to what you find in NG 2 on pager 38, that says life expectancy is 30 for anyone west of the Mississippi, and 35 for Canada or Middle and eastern US.

Most specifically, NG2 claims that life expectancy in the CS is 40-45 years and up to 55-60 in old town. This is in stark contrast to 100to 130.

It mentions only in Chi town and such does the life expectancy rise to 75+2D6 but even at the max there that'd get you to 87, which is still well below 100 to 130.

In short, the NG books are great, but the writer forgot this was already well established, at length in a previous book. Not just mentioned off hand but numbers given and a page or two explanation given as to why.

life expectancies didn't just suddenly drop by 25 to 50% in the 5 or 6 years between the books "In universe"

The writer just didn't know such things were already written and established.

[Killer Cyborg]

These are in contrast to what you find in NG 2 on pager 38, that says life expectancy is 30 for anyone west of the Mississippi, and 35 for Canada or Middle and eastern US.

Most specifically, NG2 claims that life expectancy in the CS is 40-45 years and up to 55-60 in old town. This is in stark contrast to 100to 130.

It mentions only in Chi town and such does the life expectancy rise to 75+2D6 but even at the max there that'd get you to 87, which is still well below 100 to 130.

In short, the NG books are great, but the writer forgot this was already well established, at length in a previous book. Not just mentioned off hand but numbers given and a page or two explanation given as to why.

life expectancies didn't just suddenly drop by 25 to 50% in the 5 or 6 years between the books "In universe"

The writer just didn't know such things were already written and established.

Good analysis.

[kaid]

They fight all foes of justice etc... they're just stat-ed out/trained to be really good against foes who use technology.


Daniel Stoker

Or anybody who uses tech equipment weapons which really is a pretty huge chunk of potential threats. Even the demons/devils are equipping themselves with more weapons some techno magic/soulmancy but some of it is tech as well.

Was reading a bit more of the book last night. The new plagues are pretty interesting although thankfully for most humans the majority require you to be MDC/magical or psionic to effect so they dodge a few bullets there although the ones that can effect normal humans are pretty icky.

The plagues allow for some fun with the normal power houses of a group where they can cause MDC beings to either stop bio regenerating or one transforms them into SDC beings while the disease is active.

I am also terribly amused at the list of potential cures. In almost all of them one of the potential cures is kill the infected and then use a spell to resurrect them. Um doc why do you have a gun um doc uh can we talk about this for a minute???!!!!!!

[kaid]

Also I was reading a bit on the hell pits. It looks like due to their size and the pillars "weakness" they have 1000 MDC but otherwise are vulnerable to normal types of attacks city buster nukes would work well to turn off out of control demon spigots. Although it would be a desperation move the CS has enough nukes that even in airburst mode would be more than sufficient to totally shut off hell pits over a nexus and permanently kill most if not all the demons in the vicinity.

And given the pits need to be turned back on during high PPE peaks good chance such a strike buys you 6 months or more reprieve from them being able to turn the pit back on no matter what the demons do.

Again not the first move they should try but if the demon invasion gets to far out of hand the major powers like the CS and triax could at least shut the demon production of any major nexus in their neck of the woods down pretty hard.

[Fyrpower]

Is there any mention on Splynncryth and Atlantis in the book, I'd like to assume he wouldn't be too happy knowing that the demon and deevil forces are coming down hard on the rest of the planet.

[kaid]

Is there any mention on Splynncryth and Atlantis in the book, I'd like to assume he wouldn't be too happy knowing that the demon and deevil forces are coming down hard on the rest of the planet.

Oh yes he is very not pleased and is likely to be sending a lot of covert help to various forces and intel. If thing start really going badly you may see him take a more active hand and go after places like cuidad diablo but he is learly of trying to strike to far from atlantis for fear of bringing other cosmic level players into the open.

Splynn thinks none of the demonic of devil factions would be stupid enough to attack atlantis but there are actually two factions one from each side of the minion war with large axes to grind with the splugorth who actually plan on aiming right at atlantis for their attacks. This kind of thing is actually a really good way for players to use T men and maxi men as splynn is likely to let them "slip" out of his control as they are the least likely to cause human nations to freak out and send out forces of them to throw in with other nations to push back the forces of the minion war.

[kaid]

The xiticix will probably also throw a few wrenches in the demon/devils attempt to take over the world at least on the north american front. Two of the factions are insect like see the xiticix as direct threat/competition and one or two factions wants to try to gain them as minions. I see at least one or two factions winding up in a battle of mutual annihilation that if not totally destroys one side or the other will eventually grind both sides into ineffectiveness.

So while this may not remove the threat of the xiticix if the forces of good can survive and push the demons back the xiticix problem may wind up being very managable in the aftermath.

[Zenvis]

This could be the ultimate opportunity for Atlantians to take back their home