PB treatment of RRT backers

[Kryptt]

As has been suggested by a freelance writer I'll post how I feel about the way PB has mislead the RRT backers. First of all being told that everything is fine with empty platitudes and wishy washy talk is fine if everything is fine. The reality tho was that ND was having technical difficulties integrating their files with the Chinese factory hardware. This continued for a long time as far as being told everything is going great when it wasn't. Then when were shown the rdf models we were told there's no changing them there perfect as is. Only weeks later ND comes out with a new and improved spartan. It gets worse when you look at the vf-1. This is the most iconic mecha in RT, macross, and in some circles anime (depends on who u ask ).

For most of us (at least 98%) PB pushing back the release wasn't a problem. It still isn't. In fact many of us figured PB will put out a superior product. At least that's what many PB fans lead us to believe. Heck so did Kevin himself when he spoke at length about EPIC, MOUTH WATERING minis. Unfortunatly to get RRT out in time for GC PB/ND are instead rushing the game out before the proper detail work on the vf-1 can be properly done. When I and many backers brought this up it was merely brushed aside. If anyone here has the macross RPG book the vf-1 does not have bulges on the tips of the wings and the folded fins in G mode look like slabs of plastic.

I don't doubt that Kevin and crew want the best possible product to sell. It's just now it comes of as rushed and disingenuous to the backers, after promising world class sculpts by world class artist. There's more (too much if u ask me) but I'm sure there are others who would like to add their two pence. So in closing I do feel lied to, no more like mislead by Kevin and PB in general.

Addendum: The one person I do feel bad for is Wayne having taken the brunt of the rancor by some folks. I don't think he deserved any of the rage when he's only the messenger. Kudos to Wayne and Jeff for working tirelessly on our behalf.

[The Galactus Kid]

My points:

1: Don't care game is late, wasn't expecting it till May 2015 when I thought they were gonna do a good job on the sculpts.

This is a matter of opinion. I persoanlly think they have done a great job on the sculpts that I have seen and can't wait to assemble all of mine. As a long time war gamer I am not bothered by this at all. Sorry that you are.

2: I feel PB has no respect for us backers since they have broken a very big promise to us, we were Promised before during and after that we would be the first to get product, instead I find out I spent my money on a lie and that PB would be selling the game at GenCon, before backers get their product, as far as I am concerned that is nothing but a disrespectful action by PB, I don't care about the vote I voted no and I did not give them consent to do so.

You may in fact get yours before GenCon.

3: I feel how PB or their MA's are running the GenCon games is a joke, instead of showing the game where miniature players will be, instead you hide it away in a small corner where no one goes to showcase a game in an RPG area, seriously, whos brainy idea was this?

There will be games at the booth AND the RPG area. Palladium has an entire room dedicated to their games. RRT is one of their games, AND it can be used along with the RPG, so it is a suitable place.

4: What can I say before joining this KS I had fond memories of PB and playing Robotech, since this KS I have nothing but disgust for PB.

I'm sorry you feel this way about a game. People get upset about all kinds of things, some of which are predictable and some are not. Again I'm sorry that this endeavor got to you this badly as I'm sure it was never the intent of the company to disparage anyone, as Kevin has said multiple times.

Please keep this on topic. If you would like to vent about perceived slights due to the RRT kickstarter, please start a new thread instead of trying to get this one locked.

perceived slight? seriously did you just say that? what would you call someone who said as a backer you will be the first to get product, not once but on several occasions, then says sorry your not first after they get your money, instead they will sell to others? what would you call them ?

(From the Earlier thread)
I'm a backer of this product as well. I don't' feel slighted at all. Every endeavor has issues, and this was just the cost of branching out in business. As a backer I'm 100% satisfied right now. As a fan, and gamer, I wish I had it already. As a project manager for a fortune 100 company, I know there are efficiencies that could have been found in oredr to head some of these problems off at the pass. As a freelancer, I know that Palladium did everything in their power to get this done in a timely manner and with the best quality product possible. As a type B personality, I'm pretty laid back and chill about the entire thing. Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but it doesn't get you anywhere. So, all in all, with all of the different perspectives I have, I'm still satisfied and looking forward to the game.

[The Galactus Kid]

Really as a project manager for a fortune 100 company (is that what you said?)

Yes. My company is on this list.

you can see a company making a promise to customers and then going back on that promise?

Yes. It happens all the time when there are extenuating circumstances.

you see that as good business?

Not always the best, but apologizing and trying to defuse the situation when there are things beyond your control is definitely good business. Palladium did that.

its one thing if it was problems outside of PB's control, but the problems they have are of their own making, and they actively made some of them not by accident but on purpose.

You are making assumptions here. You are assuming that all of the hold-ups were within Palladium's immediate control to resolve. I would love to know where you got your information, since I can guarantee my sources are more reliable.

what fortune ball are you looking into that shows you these images of finished product?

I am a play-tester, freelancer, backer, friend of the company and friend of Kevin. I've seen more than my fair share.

furthermore you state PB has done everything possible, yes like keeping Backers in the loop, or even up to date, and so forth, PB has been very lax about good honest forthcoming updates to us backers.

True. I did state they have done everything possible TO GET THIS DONE IN A TIMELY MANNER AND WITH THE BEST QUALITY POSSIBLE (Emphasis mine). The rest are your words, not mine. In response to your mention of updates, I felt that Palladium and the team did a good job of keeping us in the loop. We had an update almost every week and compared to almost all other Kickstarters that I have personally been a part of, the level of detail and frequency was great. I would have liked more, of course, but I never had a problem with their updates.

we are Consumers and therefore protected by certain laws, and if PB sells at GenCon before those of us in the US (ea. country has different laws and only familiar with current USA CPA laws) who voted no get our product or have it on its way to us PB will be breaking those laws.

Good luck with any legal endeavors you or any disgruntled backer may have. I look forward to seeing how those go. I'm no legal expert so I do not presume to know what the outcome will be.

so I leave it to you to decide has PB been above board and honest?

Yes. I believe they have. Glad that is settled.

[Warshield73]

I have said it before and I will say it again, I put a lot of money into this project and I was not misled or lied to. Things happened outside PBs control and they have kept us informed every step of the way. I have received more updates from PB then from all five of my outstanding KS pledges combined, and all of those are 6 months to 18 months late.

Two of those KS campaigns even had to change the agreement later. One, a movie, had to push back the delivery to the backers so they could get a DVD distribution deal. We all understood this, being a adults and wanting the movie to succeed we had no problem with this. This movie is now 6 months late and has only given 20 updates.

I understood what I was potentially getting into, having actually read the Risks & Challenges section and I knew this was not a store where I was making a pre-order.

[The Galactus Kid]

Project manager for WM, does not qualify for good business acumen, heck by that same vain I can go by I was on the front page of the Wall Street Journal in an article while it was a positive article doesn't make me a wizard of wall street now does it.

I do not work for Wal-Mart. The list of Fortune 100 companies is on the left side of the page.

Now lets extrapolate your comment about how a company that makes promises to a potential buyer (consumer) before they get their money and the buyer (consumer) buys said product based on that promise amongst other things, are you saying that is ok for PB to break said promise?

I'm saying that promises get broken all the time in business based on extenuating circumstances. Now, the situation you described above isn't an accurate representation of a Kickstarter either. You funded a project with certain risks that were outlined. You didn't purchase a product. There is a difference.

[The Galactus Kid]

I agree with some of what Rick said.

As do I. As I described above, there are many things that could have been done better, but this is a learning process. Sometimes learning hurts. It's like putting a dime in an electrical socket. It hurts like hell, but you won't do it again.

I do not post this out of hate, or trolling, or baiting, or whatever else. I just want my feelings put out there. I am disappointed in Palladium, and I'm not sure what it would take to regain my business after this kickstarter is finished. If the rules are absolutely fantastic, that would go a long way, but being denied the right to see any of the rules makes me very skeptical.

I think your post was very heartfelt and posted in a respectful manner. I, for one value your opinion and am hoping for an awesome game too.

[The Galactus Kid]

no there is not TGK it has been based already we as Kickstarter Backers are considered Consumers therefore protected by the Consumer Protection Act. so do you wish to stand by your statement?

Yes, for now. Again, I'm not a legal expert. I do not claim to be. We may be protected by the CPA, but it is up to the courts and any lawyers who take up any Kickstarter related cases to determine if the CPA has been violated.

and if not Walmart then might I ask which company? since if you condone such actions not sure I'd want anything to do with the company you work for.

You can ask, but I will not disclose my company information here beyond the list I already provided. Sorry.

[The Galactus Kid]

what it comes down to is I just want PB to honor their word to me, is that too much to ask ?

No, it's not too much to ask. Hell, that's really all Palladium wants too. Again, this is where extenuating circumstances come in to play. Kevin has stated multiple times in the updates how he wanted this entire situation resolved well before now, but there were multiple hold-ups.

[Kryptt]

Then came the whole GC issue that further fractured the community. To make it worse it felt very disingenuous when the non votes were counted as yes votes (not interested in how it's used in real life politics that's another discussion). So after creating such a ruckus to sell at GC the guys demoing the game (which is days away) don't even know the rules. To add insult to injury the game is not being demoed with other mini games. Instead it's being classed and demoed with the RPGs. So most mini wargamers won't be able to see it unless they happen to be RPG gamers. It almost feels like PB is trying to hide away from TT gamers after this arduous experience with them thru the RRT ks. In fairness I can understand if PB doesn't give their all to getting the other two eras out and Kevin hoping we and RRT go away. You see TT gamers will find loop holes to give themselves the advantage. Others will find rules inconsistencies. After all said an done in a few years time the rules will need to be updated to give new life to the game (assuming it makes it). If not it might/will die a slow death.

Another problem is we gave our money to have ND design the minis, the Chinese factory make the minis and then to have a certain someone's ex say that it was Kevin's blood sweat and tears that made the game, and that the product belongs to him and not the 5k plus backers who did put up their money earned thru their blood sweat and tears. I'm sorry but this comes off as disrespectful.

Even people that voted yes were posting their disappointment at PB.

To the MA's who will demo the game, please understand it's not an RPG. The few or many TT gamers will be put off by it if you guys don't know the minis rules and can't answer rules queries without spending 5min looking thru the book. I'm sure in person they'll be polite. The reality is they'll post online how annoying it was and will only further the negative press on PB and RRT. So am I happy with PB? No. Instaed I'm flustered by this whole fiasco and quite frankly extremely disappointed. I hope when wave one arrives I'll be blown away by it, but the way they've been designed it's seems more fifty fifty at this point.

[McPherson]

As a British Backer of the project I can safely say that over the course of the last, what 18'ish months I haven't even really thought about RRT, i'd read the updates as they appeared in my mailbox and just carry on with my life.

Then when the Gencon issue came around I actually started reading properly whats going on and what I saw disheartened me, I felt that not only are we (the European / RoW backers) being treated like second class citizens but in general are just being ignored. I understand Palladium is a US company and that's where their main push is going to be, but other US companies find was to allow those of us who don't want to spend upwards of a thousand pounds/dollars/euros to fly to Gencon to still get some of the goodies, it may be later and it may cost us in shipping but the option is still there.

So yes I feel that PB/ND may have dropped the ball in general on the Kickstarter and that stating that "other kickstarters are worse" is a poor argument at best for why backers shouldn't be upset (and yes I realise it is not the company stating that just some of the other voices in the threads) I am not screaming for blood, why?

The tireless efforts of Wayne and Jeff who I imagine are in a very tough spot, they have the crys of the multitudes on the internet demanding information, they tell us they'll look into it (I get email replies from Jeff each time I sent a question via the Kickstarter page) and then they have to try and get that information from higher up, which may be less than forthcoming with it.

Sorry for rambling on, my feelings for the Kickstarter and how its proceeded are as you can no doubt gather very mixed and confused, i'm just trying my best to voice them without resorting to frothing at the maw.

- End of Line -

[Scott Gibbons]

OK, lets see what we can do to address this whole "legal issue" thing that keeps popping up.


First off:

Actually if the courts did not see us as Consumers the case would not be in court...

This is a fallacy. All that has been established by the court accepting the case is that there is potential for the plaintiffs to be correct - that's it. If and only if, the court issues a ruling - inside of which the court specifically cites the backers as being Consumers (whether the ruling goes for or against the plaintiffs) - only then does that confer upon those particular backers the status of 'Consumer'.

Of course, the ruling could be specifically worded to extend that particular status to the backers of all kick starter projects, but that would be a huge change in the laws currently governing all crowd-sourcing websites, so that seems unlikely and would probably generate many years of litigation before the whole matter was settled. Or Congress could get involved and solve things one way or the other with one well-worded law, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

Second:

In a previous thread that this idea of legal action came up in, I actually did some research to see what the heck CAN be established about legal obligations. etc. I didn't find anything allowing a backer to submit a writ to the courts "demanding an accounting of the backers financial monies into this KS" or other such. What I did find was this:

Polygon.com wrote:
...Legally backers do not hold the same rights as a typical investor might elsewhere, placing them in a difficult position if they found themselves financially cheated; however the contract that backers enter into in crowdsourcing schemes vary, he explains:

"It varies from site to site and from one project to another. In my recent article on crowdfunding in the Columbia Business Law Review, I identify five different types of crowdfunding: In the pure donation model of crowdfunding, donors get nothing in return for their contribution. In the pre-purchase model of crowdfunding, such as the recent Pebble Smartwatch offer that has been in the news, in return for their contribution, people receive the product the company is making. In the rewards model of crowdfunding, people who contribute receive non-financial rewards. For example, if the entrepreneur is funding a movie, people who contribute above a certain amount might get their names in the credits. In the lending model of crowdfunding, people are promised their money back with interest. In the equity model of crowdfunding, people are promised a share of the profits or returns of the business."

WITH KICKSTARTER IT'S ALWAYS BUYER BEWARE

Kickstarter fits into both the pre-purchase and rewards models. This means if pledging users offer money to a project, they are not legally owed a final product in return; rather, in accordance with Kickstarter's rules they are simply promised a separate reward for their pledge. Backers have not entered into an investment contract by donating toward a project, and because contributors are offered no financial return of any kind the legal implications of an investment contract are non-existent, says Bradford.

"Contributors on reward or pre-purchase sites are offered no financial return of any kind," he writes in the Columbia Business Law Review. "They are promised only a product or service — a consumption item. Therefore, no investment contract is being offered. And, because investors on reward or pre-purchase sites are not offered stock, notes, or anything else that falls within the definition of security, federal securities law does not apply."

The result is a crowdfunding model that offers backers no entitlement to products they've supported. Kickstarter officials contend that the company is simply a venue that provides the marketplace, and while the cost of a successful project is shared widely, users will not receive company protection for the risk of loss using the platform. Kickstarter is a buyer beware market, and as the backer's rights are limited to its Terms of Use, the system in its current form relies on the collective force of the community to keep its individuals safe.

If you'd like to read the full article the link is http://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge

So, to recap:

1. Kickstarter fits into both the pre-purchase and rewards models. This means if pledging users offer money to a project, they are not legally owed a final product in return; rather, in accordance with Kickstarter's rules [not U.S. law] they are simply promised a separate reward for their pledge.

2. Backers have not entered into an investment contract by donating toward a project, and because contributors are offered no financial return of any kind the legal implications of an investment contract are non-existent. Contributors on reward or pre-purchase sites are offered no financial return of any kind. They are promised only a product or service — a consumption item. Therefore, no investment contract is being offered.

3. Because investors on reward or pre-purchase sites are not offered stock, notes, or anything else that falls within the definition of security, federal securities law does not apply.

Then again, laws are always changing and this article is almost two years old (everything more recent that I found said the same things, but not as succinctly), so maybe I missed something?

If anyone knows of more current information of current law that is in force right now, please post both the information and a link to that information, that way we can all be enlightened and in agreement about reality as it truly is.

[popscythe]

Defamation spam ahoy!

[rosco60559]

Like many I agree pb has fumbled and don't seem interested in recovering. The first dropped ball was the file issue they tried hiding for a year, backers found that one out off the ninja's fb page almost a year to date from the ks closing. That file issue clearly cost time and money, pb's silence on that with continued "98% done" till the December date came and went nudged me back towards other miniatures games. Eventually we got to this point where backers are promised the product first and the problem of gencon. Thing might have gone over better if the big guy went and had just a normal vote first instead of how things actually went down. The way things unfolded shoved not just my interest away from future rrt things but my wallet as well. I went a little nuts on this ks and till the gencon issue I was willing to spill more of my gaming budget towards pb, now I refuse to expand my pb collection. Speaking of gencon who's the target market? Rpg guys or tt gamers?

[Forar]

I'll throw my hat into the ring to say that while I'm disappointed by *extensive* delays, I too recognize that Kickstarted projects can be subject to extenuating circumstances.

What I take issue with is the failure to communicate what issues were causing those delays.

Off the top of my head, the target delivery date has been:

December 2013
October/November 2013 (this was flat out a mistake to even think about saying)
December 2013
January 2014
February 2014
June (maybe May) 2014
June 2014
July (maybe June) 2014
August/September 2014

We have had the target date slide backwards 3 entire quarters of a year (and considering the staggered container shipping, pallet'ing up for EU distribution and other travel time, it's possible there'll be some backers who don't get their stuff until Nov/Dec or later), and both the updates and newsletters generally hold strong to an 'everything is awesome, 98% done, final this, final that, final final finally final' stance, seeming to strive ever so hard to present an appearance of everything being under control.

I will happily concede that some of each will also reference how much work is necessary to make this project happen, but rarely are details about what is holding things up given, merely that issues exist.

It wasn't until months after the fact that we found out about the file incompatibility issue through a facebook post. It seems that work was being done on any number of figures, rather than focusing on what was known to be 'wave one' since mid last year, and the decision announced in January to split things off triggered an emphasis on the dozen or so sprues needed for that? The writing was on the wall from the start when it took longer to get the Pledge Manager out than we were told it would take to start punching plastic (the unfortunate "45 days" quote).

Then there was "Gencon 1: Max and Miriya Power Hour", and now "Gencon 2: The Salening", and it doesn't take a prophet to foresee "Gencon 3: The Salening Part 2".

It's disingenuous to hand wave the more reasonable critiques that are leveled at the project, all the more so when they continue to happen.

I've been critical of the project, I have spoken my mind, and I like to think I've been fairly reasonable about it. I don't expect perfection, but it'd be a good step for people to show they've learned from their mistakes, and despite being 'a terrorist' in the eyes of some, I certainly didn't sink a big pile of cash (alongside some friends) into a project just to hope, watch or actively push it to fail.

I would like to see the game succeed because of the groups working on it. Not in spite of them, and constructive criticism is a much more effective manner of improving a product or process than simply saying everything is fine.

I get that not everyone shares the same issues, but I accept their view as worthy of respect.

It'd be nice if the same respect could be shown and people (backers and forum posters alike) could stop calling anyone with remotely critical things to say "childish", "juvenile", "whiny", "crybabies", and untold other derogatory terms. Is 'the critical side' innocent? Of course not. But just because someone calls out "white knights" or what have you doesn't mean it's reasonable to paint everyone with the same brush.

Nuance and context are important things, and a lot (not all, but many) of people seem quick to devolve an issue into "us vs them" style 'othering' when it need not.

[smashed]

All that shows is that the AG of Washington state is filing charges under the CPA, that in itself does not show that crowd-funding backers fall under the CPA, now they could very well, but it will be up to the courts to decide. It's still a grey area, no surprise since crowd-funding at these scales is such a new concept. Which I believe is what IO is trying to convey.

@ IO: As far as your source goes, it may be out of date as I believe Kick-starter updated their terms and conditions sometime in 2012/2013.

As far as RRT goes, I'm a bit disappointed about the delay. Personally I felt they kept me updated enough, it was more then some of the projects I've backed, and less then others. More then anything I'm excited that we seem to be in the final stages!

[The Galactus Kid]

There is no legal precedent since the case hasn't been decided, right? Also, the case in point involved a project that didn't deliver at all and didn't communicate at all. Palladium and Ninja Division wouldn't fall into this category. Any legal action would be interesting to watch.

[The Galactus Kid]

All that shows is that the AG of Washington state is filing charges under the CPA, that in itself does not show that crowd-funding backers fall under the CPA, now they could very well, but it will be up to the courts to decide. It's still a grey area, no surprise since crowd-funding at these scales is such a new concept. Which I believe is what IO is trying to convey.

@ IO: As far as your source goes, it may be out of date as I believe Kick-starter updated their terms and conditions sometime in 2012/2013.

Actually Kickstarter is nothing new, its just a different venue is all, the original program of pledging to help make something and receiving items with certain pledges was done long time ago by PBS (you know the Sesame Street Channel with their pledge drives.

Also the fact Kickstarter backers are considered consumers is a far gone conclusion, one definition of a consumer is someone who pays money for the promise of product or a service in return, so for those of you trying to say Kickstarter backers are not Consumers you are wasting your breath and barking up the wrong tree, you already lost on that one.

as it goes what the Washington case is being tried under is one aspect of the CPA, which was the failure to deliver product, that is not the only option that protects consumers, there are other avenues such as false advertising or making promises then breaking them

so for those who might try to say its not the same thing your also barking up the wrong tree and lost that one.

There is no legal precedent since the case hasn't been decided, right? Also, the case in point involved a project that didn't deliver at all and didn't communicate at all. Palladium and Ninja Division wouldn't fall into this category. Any legal action would be interesting to watch.

answered most of this above before I even saw it, go figure, legal precedent is not always made at the end of the case but also during and before as with the consumer portion, that was already made a long time ago, by the law.

All this case did was make it very specific.

My point stands that legal action would be interesting to watch, especially for future kickstarters by any company. I would seriously doubt that any legal action is seriously considered or enacted against Palladium. If it does come to that, I would be completely dumbfounded if Palladium loses.

[The Galactus Kid]

Good luck with that. Tell me how it goes. Hopefully you will still be posting whether it is successful or if it gets laughed out of court.

[Forar]

It's going to be really anticlimactic if he doesn't take them to court after this many months of threa... "pointing out consequences of actions in a really repetitive way".

So very torn.

[Kendachi]

It's just a bully tactic. If there was lawyer who would take this case, he'd be happy to be named so others could get on board.

It's just silly. Tiring too. Rick's given us less info about his lawyer than PB has about the shipping.

[Forar]

only way that's happening is if I get my product before they sell it to others, but then again i'm not the only one who will be doing that either. by the way forar ever find out more about the other guy who supposedly filed an injunction to prevent PB from selling at GC ? curious what happened there since not sure anything could have been done with it, but curious.

A.W. on July 11
I have just Faxed Palladium a breach of contract notification, they have 3 days to respond before the suit is filed.

Note that 'the vote' started on July 12th.

For all the people who like to confidently claim that there's no legal standing, when pushed it seems that PB jumped pretty quickly to establish 'backer consensus' which they could stand behind.

Though the "non-votes will be treated as votes" thing would probably get them enough eye rolling to warrant a workman's compensation claim, regardless of the newsletter that tried to 'walk it back'.

[NMI]

I would seriously doubt that any legal action is seriously considered or enacted against Palladium. If it does come to that, I would be completely dumbfounded if Palladium loses.

I wouldn't and I wouldn't, I've already stated if PB breaks the word made I will take them to court, I'll also get my states DA involved too, and no doubt PB will lose, its not like it is not clear cut, we are consumers, there are laws enacted to protect consumers, you break those laws, you lose.

PB made statements or promises regarding backers being first to get product if PB sells at GenCon before backers get their product or even have it in the mail to them, they will be violating said statement and promise, now if you happened to be one of those backers who voted yes, then yes you have no case since you gave up your right to that part of the deal, but those of us who voted no, did not, so we still have legal recourse if PB does violate said statement.

Furthermore since it will be a federal matter since it is federal law, said cases can be filed by aggrieved parties in their local federal district courts, so hope PB has good frequent flyer programs.

the only part that has to be shown on my part is that PB sold product (to non backers) before I received my product or had it in the mail to me.

Did they actually use the word "Promise"?

[BuzzardB]

Guess it's all moot now that they won't have it at Gencon.

Customs just saved palladium from Rick S

[Shark_Force]

Though the "non-votes will be treated as votes" thing would probably get them enough eye rolling to warrant a workman's compensation claim, regardless of the newsletter that tried to 'walk it back'.

no, it makes perfect sense considering the context.

the question asked was basically "do you care if we sell the product at gencon?"

if you don't care enough to answer that question, odds are pretty danged good that you don't care if they sell the product at gencon. oh, there's a tiny chance that someone does care a great deal and just missed their chance to vote, but it's incredibly unlikely that such a thing happened to more than a handful of people.

so in this case, counting a non-vote as a person not caring is perfectly reasonable. it's not a vote for "we want you to sell product at gencon", it's a vote for apathy. and a non-vote is a pretty strong indication of apathy.

[Forar]

*more eye rolling*

[Glistam]

Guess it's all moot now that they won't have it at Gencon.

Customs just saved palladium from Rick S

That's the funniest RRT news I've heard yet!

[JimmyB]

Dang it, I was hoping this would be interesting.
More like a broken record......

[Scott Gibbons]

Dang it, I was hoping this would be interesting.
More like a broken record......

Agreed.