Gen Con Indy – we leave it up to our Kickstarter backers

[Kryptt]

Greetings and salutations. I think you misread my post. I acknowledge that your right about the yes votes. In fact I agree. I will make another attempt. Have you noticed that several of the yes votes are followed by comments that many yes votes are also criticizing PB? No need for rancor friend. Safe journeys.

I have read many Yes votes who acknowledge that while personally they are unhappy with the overall state of affairs (with various short to very long winded descriptions there of) they recognize the importance of GenCon and are voting yes out of a desire to see the product succeed.
That reads to me not as reluctant, but as making a choice based on weighing the facts in their own opinion (as not everyone will look at the same facts and come to the same opinion) and voting how the feel it is best to vote.

Are those the votes you are referring to as 'reluctant'?

Greetings and salutations. Yes, and thank you. Safe journeys.

Since most quite clearly state their intentions and reasoning, how did you come to the conclusion that they are reluctant?

Greetings and salutations. This is how I came to my conclusion.

(("Yes
Might as well sell at Gencon because your inept handling of this project along with public relations disaster after disaster this game needs all the help it can get. Sell a few hundred or thousand or whatever you want. Make backers wait for a second shipment form the factory. This thing is close to being dead on arrival."))

(("Yes.
But only because my vote is irrelevant. You've rigged the vote to produce the results that you want. I'm not upset by the delays. I'm not upset by the split of the product into two product waves. I'm not even upset that there is a possibility that some people could have their product before me. Had you asked for pure permission without counting a non-response as a yes vote, I would have said yes. I understand all of the benefits that will be gained by some sale of the product at GenCon. And quite honestly, you don't need our permission to do it. My sole problem is the way you've rigged the vote to achieve the results that you desire. It's the first time I've felt angry at this project."))

(("Yes.... Im already $&#% by palladium!"))

(("Yes
BUT
"NEVER A KICKSTARTER AGAIN FOR PALLADIUM"))

(("Yes. -
But I'm also wagging my finger in 'shame on you'. I am disappointed with the method in which this vote is conducted. I have lots of words that could be said, but others have likely said so either more eloquently or pointedly."))

(("Yes - And this is for Kevin. Sell at Gencon if you feel you must but just know, you are breaking your word. Honesty and integrity are still important and Kickstarter is predicated on making and *keeping* promises.
It boils down to your integrity or quick cash at Gencon. You pick.
I ultimately voted yes since it's your company and your game. I will enjoy my models when the come. Whether I actually trust you again for another Kickstarter or similar venture... well... it's hard to earn back trust once its gone."))

That's only a few I found in the update comments. Again I acknowledge that the yes votes outnumber the no votes. I just hope you can be open like I was with your point of view. Safe journeys.

[13eowulf]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

[Kryptt]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

Greetings and salutations. I get that you support PB. I think it's great! I just get the feeling that your trying to avoid acknowledging my point. If I am mistaken, please accept my apologies. It just seems that as soon as I made my point you suddenly exit. Again I post this not in rancor so no need to throw any my way. Anyways have fun at your picnic. Safe journeys.

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyborg dude, the vote is an illusion of choice. Not everyone will vote or bother to look at the update email.

Let's look at that.
Why exactly would somebody NOT vote?
There are essentially two answers:
1. They don't care.
2. They haven't heard.

If they don't CARE, then that means by definition that they will not be offended by Palladium selling the product at GenCon.
If they haven't heard, then there are two likely reasons:
A. They don't care enough about the deal to pay close attention to what's going on.
B. They're trapped somehow away from the internet, due to circumstances beyond their control.

If A, then they don't really care about the situation. IF they DID care a heck of a lot about what was going on, then they'd pay attention. People prioritize what is most important to them in life.
If B, then there are two possibilities...

I. Something serious is going on. Maybe they're overseas, maybe they're in the jungle, maybe they're marooned on a deserted island. Whatever. In many of the extreme cases where a person is completely unable to get online in today's world, that would be because something important is going on in their lives, something much, much more important than people at GenCOn buying some toys.
II. They really ARE able to get online, but it's a hassle. They don't have internet themselves, they don't have any friends who will let them borrow an internet-friendly phone for five minutes, they don't have friends who will let them get online to check stuff, and it's a long walk to the public library or other areas that would let them use the internet for free.
Doesn't matter. NOT checking in on things because it's a hassle means that you have bigger priorities in your life- you don't really care about getting online and finding out what's going on.

There might be some exceptions- some kind of crazy situation where a person feels that this outcome is truly important to their life, but they still can't check in. Maybe there's a guy out there who will come out of a coma the day after the vote closes, and freak the holy **** out because he'll be seriously upset.
But I doubt that there's as many as TWO of those guys.
Erring on the side of insane improbability, let's say that there's TEN.
Hell, let's say that there's an entire 20 people for whom this is VERY important, and that they'll ALL wake up from their comas after the vote closes, and that they're ALL going to really going to be incredibly upset that they missed the vote, and that it will be a significant event in all of their lives.
That's still only 20 people, out of over five-thousand.

They're the extreme exception, not the rule.
The RULE is that the people not voting on this thing are going to be not voting because they just don't really care about it. They might care a little... but not enough to pay attention to the Kickstarter page, or the Palladium page, or any of the facebook pages, or any of the other places where this is being discussed.
Which means that their level of concern isn't high enough for Palladium to make a business decision that they feel would be financially devastating for the company.

The backers were all ready treated like little kids being told this is what's happening. The vote is set up so someone gets his way before any votes are cast. Like I stated I'm fine losing to the yes side fair and square, not when they win out of the gate.

It's a vote that requires an absolute majority. In that kind of vote, it is standard for abstentions to work as votes for the status quo.
You can try to argue that they should have gone with a vote that only required a simple majority, but please don't bother unless you're really familiar with those terms, and what they entail.
What Palladium is trying to accomplish with this vote is to find out how many of their backers would be truly upset by this. Not just a bit miffed, but actually really upset.
If the number of backers truly upset by this is more than 50%, then Palladium is willing to take an action that they believe would be financially devastating for the company, just to try to appease those ~2,500 people.
That's not evil. That's not selfish.
That's NOT unfair.
Most companies wouldn't even blink at upsetting that many people.
Many companies would effectively flip them off and laugh.
Palladium- despite their many flaws- is willing to screw themselves over to appease the backers for this project.
BUT only if the majority of the backers are seriously upset by it.

So they set up a vote that would count the majority of voters.
They didn't go with a simple majority, because 50% of the backers who bother to vote isn't sufficient for them to financially hurt themselves on this level. As a rule with this kind of thing, a LOT of the people won't care one way or the other, so they're not going to vote.
Again, as a rule, that is the single biggest reason why somebody wouldn't vote on this kind of thing- indifference.

Say that out of 5k backers, 75% of them don't vote.
Of the remaining 25%, let's say that 15% are truly upset, and 10% say to go head.
With a simple majority vote, that would mean that Palladium would end up making a financially devastating decision based on the hurt feelings of 15% of the people that they broke a promise to.
THAT wouldn't be fair.
A simple majority vote would bias things the other way, toward the unhappy minority of people who are truly upset by this. It would put a major financial decision into a relative handful of people, NOT the majority of the backers.
That kind of outcome would be unfair not only to Palladium, but to all the other backers who put their money into this project wanting it to succeed, only to have that success sabotaged at the outset by the minority of people who would rather damage the success of the project overall in order to be first in line to get it.

Why is it too much to expect someone to keep their word now a days?

Because sometimes people make promises that they either cannot keep at all, or that they can only keep by taking significant damage to themselves.
In this case, Palladium is willing to keep their promise in spite of the damage that it would do them, but only if the majority of people that they made the promise TO really want to hold them to the promise.

[Killer Cyborg]

Everyone seems to think those who are angry about this are only angry about the timeline.

I know that isn't the case, because while the timeline is frustrating, the waitress analogy given above is pretty much how I feel about it. It was given with good intention, and just turned out wrong.

The lie came later, as people have posted, saying backers would at least be shipped out first. This is something they DO have control over. Lets not kid ourselves here.

In this case, the above Hostess says to you "I'll seat you next", but then someone in a nicer suit walks in, and they give them a table right away.

Does this happen? Yes.
Is it illegal? no.
Is it good customer service? hell no.

Breaking trust with your customers is NEVER a good plan. It sets a precedent that you are willing to lie to your customer. How many restaurants would you frequent if you couldn't believe your server?

Yes, they might sell all 200 copies of everything at Gencon... but are people actually going to sit there and build models? I doubt it.

And yes, they might make 500 bucks a shot... a total of 10 grand... just from that.

But as fans read up on this, some will care (and some won't) about the lie. Some will come to the conclusion "I don't want to be lied to."

People were always going to get their stuff before me, I'm out of the USA. I can live with that.

But does it really make me some kind of giant ******* for being upset that a company I gave a chunk of money to lied to me?

Good post.
The answer to the question depends on HOW upset you are over it.
Because there are reasonable levels of response to a given situation, and there are unreasonable responses.

[Killer Cyborg]

one other aspect over looked about non-voters is that PB even said several backers did not pony up the money, yet their presence as backers is shown, even though they are not backers.

Fair point.
Got an estimate for how many people that is?

[Kryptt]

one other aspect over looked about non-voters is that PB even said several backers did not pony up the money, yet their presence as backers is shown, even though they are not backers.

Fair point.
Got an estimate for how many people that is?

Greetings and salutations. From what Wayne posted in some update from months ago or last year, I think he responded to Forar or someone else that a small percentage of backer money didn't go thru. Still I'd like to know how many people that is myself. You'd have to ask Wayne or get PB to open up their books. Safe journyes

[Killer Cyborg]

one other aspect over looked about non-voters is that PB even said several backers did not pony up the money, yet their presence as backers is shown, even though they are not backers.

Fair point.
Got an estimate for how many people that is?

Greetings and salutations. From what Wayne posted in some update from months ago or last year, I think he responded to Forar or someone else that a small percentage of backer money didn't go thru. Still I'd like to know how many people that is myself. You'd have to ask Wayne or get PB to open up their books. Safe journyes

Yeah, I'm with you in wanting to know more precisely than "a small percentage."

I'm also curious if those backers who didn't pay can still vote NO to Palladium doing the GenCon thing.

[Jorel]

the backers that were a part of it when it closed are all still a part of it, unless they have somehow been banned. There are 5,432 people that have an option to vote one way or another.

[Kryptt]

Greetings and salutations. I Really wish Kevin would give an honest update on wave two right about now. I get that he's busy with GC and book writing, but I would appreciate it if he could let us know what's going on. For months he said everything is going great and there's no problems and everything is 98% done. If not for one of the ninjas letting us know that the truth is that the nd files weren't compatible with the Chinese software used at the factory. Then we were told nothing can be changed with the spartan only to see ND post the new and improved spartan. Not by much, but I'll take it as ND trying to do damage control. I'm fine that there are delays. I just don't appreciate being misled. Even if it's not malicious or intentional on Kevin's part. He or Wayne still gave vague info in some of his murmurs and updates. I just have difficulty believing what he has to say due to his own actions this past year. To the fans please don't think this is an attack on Kevin or Wayne. But I wonder if the Kevin from 33yrs ago with wild eyed dreams of making games people will love, would have behaved the way he has this last year? Something tells me were going to go thru more strife later when wave two doesn't show up later this year. Safe journeys.

[Kryptt]

Sorry for reposting this I don't want this to get buried at the bottom.

Greetings and salutations. I Really wish Kevin would give an honest update on wave two right about now. I get that he's busy with GC and book writing, but I would appreciate it if he could let us know what's going on. For months he said everything is going great and there's no problems and everything is 98% done. If not for one of the ninjas letting us know that the truth is that the nd files weren't compatible with the Chinese software used at the factory. Then we were told nothing can be changed with the spartan only to see ND post the new and improved spartan. Not by much, but I'll take it as ND trying to do damage control. I'm fine that there are delays. I just don't appreciate being misled. Even if it's not malicious or intentional on Kevin's part. He or Wayne still gave vague info in some of his murmurs and updates. I just have difficulty believing what he has to say due to his own actions this past year. To the fans please don't think this is an attack on Kevin or Wayne. But I wonder if the Kevin from 33yrs ago with wild eyed dreams of making games people will love, would have behaved the way he has this last year? Something tells me were going to go thru more strife later when wave two doesn't show up later this year. Safe journeys.

[Forar]

one other aspect over looked about non-voters is that PB even said several backers did not pony up the money, yet their presence as backers is shown, even though they are not backers.

Fair point.
Got an estimate for how many people that is?

Greetings and salutations. From what Wayne posted in some update from months ago or last year, I think he responded to Forar or someone else that a small percentage of backer money didn't go thru. Still I'd like to know how many people that is myself. You'd have to ask Wayne or get PB to open up their books. Safe journyes

A) Kryptt, man, what's with this "greetings and salutations" stuff? Did you sustain a concussion recently?

B) I'll go double check, but I believe Wayne said it was 1-2% that failed to back, which would be around 50-100 people. HOWEVER, while one could extrapolate that out to 1-2% of the cash, we have no context one what backer levels they were at. For all we know, they were all $1 contributions and it didn't change the total at all, or they were all at the average (or above) and it totaled tens of thousands of dollars (still a drop in the bucket, but a significant sum all the same).

That all said: C) I highly doubt many people who weren't able to (or didn't care enough to) pay for their tier are invested enough in the project to vote. I'm not saying it's impossible, but statistically it's probably background noise. If they ALL vote No, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the Yes's, and if they ALL vote yes, it's just more weight on the winning side. More likely it's a split and probably doesn't shift the numbers much at all.

Also for those who think this Convention will get out good PR, tell me what happened when they had Miriya and Max at last years genCon, what word of mouth got out about that? just curious.

Erm... people trying to double their money on eBay got some attention. >.>

[Forar]

Ooooh, no, the buzz will be all the C&D orders sent out against the people who scan and post the rule book online.

That'll be some fun times.

But on the up side, after asking, whining and even begging for the last 16 or so months, it'll finally be 'out in the wild'.

[Kryptt]

yeah that was the only buzz I heard about that, and something tells me that will be the only buzz we here after this Con, don't think we are going to hear a lot of ooh wow what an awesome game or such. don't exactly wonder how this will help with promoting the game that demoing and taking pre-orders couldn't, all that this is doing is alienating more and more Backers, which are the meat and potatoes of making this game a good game.

I think the negative buzz will continue after GC like it did with the GC minis. I do however expect nothing but rave reviews and lots of hyperbole in a RRT update or weekly murmur. I expect to be told that GC goers flipped and were wowed by all the amazing attention to detail. As well as finding out that everyone who showed up at booth 1223 had nothing but nice things to say and how it was epic.lol.

Even PB's more ardent fans want this to be over and some if you've noticed feel that the vote as well as the mishandling of RRT has been problematic.

[Killer Cyborg]

And we still don't know if the shipment will even be at the warehouse in time for Gencon. Which to me would be a laugh roit if it didn't show up until after, which make all of this pointless! *grins sardonically*

[JimmyB]

Bah hahaha, hehe.
Ok, I dont really believe in mentioning other game products in the forums.
So that is all I am going to say about previous statements.

[13eowulf]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

have fun on the picnic.

Thank you, we did.

[13eowulf]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

Greetings and salutations. I get that you support PB. I think it's great! I just get the feeling that your trying to avoid acknowledging my point. If I am mistaken, please accept my apologies. It just seems that as soon as I made my point you suddenly exit. Again I post this not in rancor so no need to throw any my way. Anyways have fun at your picnic. Safe journeys.

Well, look at that, more shrouded aggressiveness.
I fully intended to respond to you earlier post, with even more backer comments copied and pasted that stated how they understood the decision, and voting yes, even though personally they didnt like it. Because there are so many of those to choose from. Anyone interested can go to the very public page and see that, instead of cherry-picking posts.

Despite your language choice you come across as hostile, and I believe your attempts to seem otherwise are disingenuous.

Also, you dont get what I do and dont support. Your posts to me make that obvious.

[13eowulf]

Everyone seems to think those who are angry about this are only angry about the timeline.

I know that isn't the case, because while the timeline is frustrating, the waitress analogy given above is pretty much how I feel about it. It was given with good intention, and just turned out wrong.

The lie came later, as people have posted, saying backers would at least be shipped out first. This is something they DO have control over. Lets not kid ourselves here.

In this case, the above Hostess says to you "I'll seat you next", but then someone in a nicer suit walks in, and they give them a table right away.

Does this happen? Yes.
Is it illegal? no.
Is it good customer service? hell no.

Breaking trust with your customers is NEVER a good plan. It sets a precedent that you are willing to lie to your customer. How many restaurants would you frequent if you couldn't believe your server?

Yes, they might sell all 200 copies of everything at Gencon... but are people actually going to sit there and build models? I doubt it.

And yes, they might make 500 bucks a shot... a total of 10 grand... just from that.

But as fans read up on this, some will care (and some won't) about the lie. Some will come to the conclusion "I don't want to be lied to."

People were always going to get their stuff before me, I'm out of the USA. I can live with that.

But does it really make me some kind of giant ******* for being upset that a company I gave a chunk of money to lied to me?

Good post.
The answer to the question depends on HOW upset you are over it.
Because there are reasonable levels of response to a given situation, and there are unreasonable responses.

Agreed, a very good post.

[Solarius]

Here's why I said NO. I backed the product with the information saying it would be ready by November-December and I thought it would be a great present for myself and my nephew. As I was told we would get it before anyone else and when I did the math I was making a killing on all the bonus miniatures which would give me army for my nephew. I was patient knowing I would get it first before anyone else. Then they changed the release date months later and made exclusive figures just for a convention. I was like ok I can wait a bit more but I'm getting mad. Then came the hey we are only shipping half your order as its taking so long to get things we thought was done and ready made. Now its ooh you might have to wait longer so we can sell stuff to people who didn't even help fund the project so it could be made. What really had made me mad was I've had a painter waiting this whole time for the figs to come in and would paint them for free cuz they enjoy painting and such and now after the long wait. I find out they are moving(not pb's direct fault). So the more I see this the more i'm like give me my product or give me my money back

[13eowulf]

And we still don't know if the shipment will even be at the warehouse in time for Gencon. Which to me would be a laugh roit if it didn't show up until after, which make all of this pointless! *grins sardonically*

or it could be he needs a response by the 21st. so he can have a pallet air freighted over, since a pallet would need to be airmailed around then to arrive before GenCon, since don't think Kevin is one to put all his eggs into one basket, Just speculating.

Air freighting a pallet only for GenCon would annoy me greatly. Presuming the cost of such came out of the KS funds.

[13eowulf]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

have fun on the picnic.

Thank you, we did.

Cool, if you saw ants did you tell your kids they were invid and to squish them ?

Their was a birthday party a few tables down, the cake seemed draw all the ants, I was ok with that.

There were however some well constructed seats that constantly spun when they were sat it. It was good initial Valkyrie g-force training.

[Kryptt]

In the interest of Levity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5ihJ8BUZJo

Just a break from all the serious posting, I will get back to replying after a Picnic Dinner with the family.

Greetings and salutations. I get that you support PB. I think it's great! I just get the feeling that your trying to avoid acknowledging my point. If I am mistaken, please accept my apologies. It just seems that as soon as I made my point you suddenly exit. Again I post this not in rancor so no need to throw any my way. Anyways have fun at your picnic. Safe journeys.

Well, look at that, more shrouded aggressiveness.
I fully intended to respond to you earlier post, with even more backer comments copied and pasted that stated how they understood the decision, and voting yes, even though personally they didnt like it. Because there are so many of those to choose from. Anyone interested can go to the very public page and see that, instead of cherry-picking posts.

Despite your language choice you come across as hostile, and I believe your attempts to seem otherwise are disingenuous.

Also, you dont get what I do and dont support. Your posts to me make that obvious.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since most quite clearly state their intentions and reasoning, how did you come to the conclusion that they are reluctant?

Greetings and salutations. I think your reading to much into my posts. You asked what led me to conclude why I came to my conclusion. All I did was post how some yes votes are made grudgingly. You asked why. I never said they represent why the majority is voting yes. Your right many more are yes votes because they support what PB wants to do at GC. I really do see that you've made a valid post with information to back up your view. You asked the same of me. So I just wanted to illustrate that even in the yes votes there is dissension. I'm not saying to discount anyone's vote. I respect your stance on why you voted yes. I can see your point my friend. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge mine? Again this is not posted with hostility or deception in mind. I proved my view with evidence you asked for. Safe journeys.

[Jerell]

I would say yes. I want the product to be as successful as possible from the start so I have people to game against. I'm okay with some stuff going to Gencon, even if it's a little before I get my KS stuff. I think that's just the best business move for PB, so I'm fine with it.

[Shark_Force]

i don't have a horse in this race, but i do find it interesting that after all the claims how it's inherently unfair for palladium to choose not to make a bad financial decision on the basis that people who don't vote generally failed to vote because they don't care, there are in fact a *lot* of votes, and it's kinda looking like palladium is quite likely reaching enough people that if 50% of their backers were upset, there would be plenty of votes.

i mean, 8 days to go and there's close to 1300 votes if i'm understanding the situation correctly?

bearing in mind that people don't even *have* to vote yes to be counted as a yes, and that in general the people who are not upset are going to be dramatically less motivated to post about how they are not upset than those who are, and the upset people are still way way way behind.

so ummm.... yeah. the voting looks to be pretty reasonable to me. not voting is assumed to mean you don't care enough to vote, which is pretty accurate. and there's looking like a fair chance there'll be enough voters that if there really was as much widespread anger as some people are claiming, they could get 50% and then some.

so ummm... from the perspective of someone who is probably about as close to having an objective opinion as you can get on this forum (though certainly not in the entirety of the world)... this seems like a very reasonable course of action. he's actually going against what his closest friends and business associates advise on this to potentially make a choice that is so obviously bad that after discussing it with said people (who are experienced in the industry), he's still willing to let the backers have an input if they choose to do so.

the lateness of the project in general sucks, i can certainly understand being upset about that. i can certainly understand being upset about how palladium has handled this thing... i'd probably spend a lot more time angry if i hadn't already set my expectations for palladium's actual release schedule to be vastly more delayed than they consistently expect. i mean, as of last year, there were at least 4 books that were promised that i really wanted to see, and the only reason i'm not disappointed to not see them is that i was expecting a best-case scenario of maybe one of them coming out, with a very high chance of it being zero anyways... and those who had no reason to expect that to be the case are understandably upset.

but really, overall, this looks like someone making the best decision they can for the line, which is also going to be the best decision for the backers in general. after all, if the game doesn't take off, many of them will not have anyone to play it with.

(and on a side note, the only promise anyone has posted here is that you will be getting the first shot at receiving many - not all - of the minis first. which promise is very different from a promise that all backers will definitely receive everything before anyone else. perhaps there is a more explicit promise elsewhere, but that's the only one posted here).

[Forar]

Frankly, someone who hasn't had hundreds or thousands of dollars tied up in this and been fed line after line for the last 14 months really doesn't understand the issue.

Being entirely objective is great in a purely scientific fashion, but people are not entirely rational creatures, and trying to treat a complex situation with thousands of people and practically millions of dollars tied to it is missing the forest for the trees.

It's great to have an outsiders view, but the lack of 'skin in the game' also means there are nuances that you simply are not going to feel or recognize.

15-20% negativity is certainly a minority, but it's not like it's five or ten guys and gals railing against the darkness here either, and regardless of the final numbers, I sincerely hope PB gives a lot of thought to how they treat the backer community going forward.

[Warshield73]

Frankly, someone who hasn't had hundreds or thousands of dollars tied up in this and been fed line after line for the last 14 months really doesn't understand the issue.

Being entirely objective is great in a purely scientific fashion, but people are not entirely rational creatures, and trying to treat a complex situation with thousands of people and practically millions of dollars tied to it is missing the forest for the trees.

It's great to have an outsiders view, but the lack of 'skin in the game' also means there are nuances that you simply are not going to feel or recognize.

15-20% negativity is certainly a minority, but it's not like it's five or ten guys and gals railing against the darkness here either, and regardless of the final numbers, I sincerely hope PB gives a lot of thought to how they treat the backer community going forward.

PB has screwed up the KS for RRT badly, I think we can agree on that.

However, they have kept us informed the entire way and not treated us badly. They have not lied to you, they have not stolen your money, they have not insulted you. I do have to agree with you on something, there is nothing about this that is rational.

[Kryptt]

However, they have kept us informed the entire way and not treated us badly. They have not lied to you, they have not stolen your money, they have not insulted you. I do have to agree with you on something, there is nothing about this that is rational.

Greetings and salutations. Actually Kevin did lie about the progress on RRT. When ND realized that their software wasn't compatible with the manufactures software, Kevin said everything was great and he continued his 98% done bit along with his usual banter. He also said in Fridays update about how difficult this project has been since it's inception with all the moving parts and such. I agree with Kevin about producing RRT being a difficult task. I don't fault him on the delays.

If you remeber during the campaign we were sold on the idea that ND would take the lead with hardly any involvent with Kevin or PB. Soon after the ks ended comment ninja said his/her goodbyes and let us know that PB would now take the lead. ND is designing the minis and helping in getting RRT out. Still it's PB that has the lead in the project not ND as we were told last year. It's not until now that he's dropped the wishy washy talk and is admitting that PB is having problems. Like so many before me have already posted. I don't mind the delays. I do mind Kevin not being upfront with his fans, and backers. As for not being treated badly that's a matter of opinion. Some backers feel his latest murmur posted by Alex, is an attempt at emotional blackmail. Others feel slighted that they waited over a year and are being put at the back of the line. It's all perspective. I've since learned to accept the opinion of those who view the situation differntly. Because it's just as valid as mine. I get that you don't feel like you were lied to or treated badly, but unfortunatey some do. Safe journyes.

[JimmyB]

This Kick Starter turned out literally 20 times bigger than expected. Not only did that mean a lot of backers, over 5000.
But it also meant a lot of rewards. In fact if you get Battle Cry or above, you literally get more than double the box set.
Even if everything went perfect, they could not have got it out as fast as originally intended.

For the record, I spent well over 4 digits. The exact amount doesnt matter. The point is I understand
having a lot invested. But this is not a small kick starter, it isnt going to happen over night. And PB
has tried to keep us in the loop every step of the way. As for Gen Con. It is not only the biggest
gaming convention around, it is the biggest gathering of game vendors. Having product available there
is crucial, even if it is only minimal.

And I dont understand the complaint, since having some available there, does not affect when the backers get
their product. There will be people at the Warehouse working on it every day, including during the convention.
Again, its not something that can happen in a day. There are over 5000 backers. If they can get them all
out in 30 days, it would be a miracle.

Admittedly the timing sucks, but again. At least we are being kept in the loop the whole way.
And having seen some of the minis, and the art. I can tell you. It has been well worth the wait.
I for one am just excited to see this finally being made a reality, and cant wait to get mine.

I also, would like to say. I for one think that everyone has been doing an outstanding job, considering
the vastness of this product. Miniatures, Art Work, rules Editing. I dont think people realize the colossal
effort that has gone into this.

[Forar]

PB has screwed up the KS for RRT badly, I think we can agree on that.

However, they have kept us informed the entire way and not treated us badly. They have not lied to you, they have not stolen your money, they have not insulted you.

So when the delivery date was December, and then October/November, and then December, and then February, and then March, and then June (maybe May), and then June, and then July (maybe June) and then July, and now 'maybe August for some, maybe September, relying on what may be the most optimistic China to North America delivery schedule ever', but we're supposed to believe that they've always had full faith in delivery?

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to notice that despite those dates supposedly all being in good faith, they missed the mark for nearly a year straight.

And you know why?

Nope. And neither do I.

Because it takes backer outrage across the internet and thousands of comments to even get a hint of what is actually holding things up.

The delays disappoint me, especially when we're approaching 300% of the target 'estimate' (note; whomever made that estimate should be ashamed of themselves, whether it was PB or ND, but anyone who took them at face value needs to seriously think about what they agreed was sensible), and all the moreso anyone who believed those estimates when they doubled down right after the campaign ended and they bumped up the target two months. Many took that as a sign that they were, in fact, really far along.

Sadly, it was actually a sign that the delivery target had utterly zero basis in reality.

I've never said that they stole my money, but haven't lied? Have kept us up to date? Not in the slightest. Not with these kinds of delays up against those updates and newsletters. One was sunshine and rainbows and 'omg 98% final mouth watering everyone loves them says they're perfect rule book is in final super duper final revisions!' and yet a year passed before we could even see a light at the end of the tunnel. For the first 1/3 or so of the figures.

[Kryptt]

Warshield73

Greetings and salutations. I almost forgot spartangate. Wayne specifically said the design as is is the only way it can be done. Only to see weeks later that ND reworked the design. Even ninja John on FB has acknowledged "the aesthetics of the models are lacking" as he himself put it. I personally wish ND was the lead but it is what it is my friend. I hope you can see for youself why some backers feel as they do. Safe journeys.

[Forar]

This Kick Starter turned out literally 20 times bigger than expected. Not only did that mean a lot of backers, over 5000.
But it also meant a lot of rewards. In fact if you get Battle Cry or above, you literally get more than double the box set.

Good thing too, because it's literally more than double the retail price of a pair of box sets.

Even if everything went perfect, they could not have got it out as fast as originally intended.

Funny, because it'll have taken around 3 times as long as estimated to deliver 1/3 of the product. That's more than a mere 'ooops'.

And PB has tried to keep us in the loop every step of the way.

See above. What they said and reality don't line up. That's not "trying to keep us in the loop".

Again, its not something that can happen in a day. There are over 5000 backers. If they can get them all out in 30 days, it would be a miracle.

You should warn them. Because we have it on good authority that that's pretty much exactly what they plan to do.

And, ponder this; what if they don't?

What if they have a smashing success at Gencon... and then Container 2 gets held up in customs for a month. And container 3 gets eaten by a Kaiju. They've *said* tons of things, and we're not supposed to hold it against them when they're wrong (by a significant margin), but we are supposed to keep taking their word for things.

Man, that's not loyalty. That's uncomfortably blind faith.

[Kryptt]

[Quote\ Man, that's not loyalty. That's uncomfortably blind faith \]

Agreed

[JimmyB]

Well, What they have said has been overly optimistic. I dont think anyone can argue that.
But I dont fault PB for wanting and hoping to have this game in hand, as badly as I do.
And the fact is, this game goes way beyond anything they have
ever done. I dont consider it over the realm of possibility to say,
they got caught a bit off guard by the size of this task themselves.

Its not blind faith. But given the choice to be negative and complain,
or to show them support in this huge task, I choose to be positive.
I want to see this game be the biggest and best game ever, and
in the future see expansions to go with it.

[Solarius]

Its not that I don't want palladium to succeed and do well. I do it means I can continue getting some new books I enjoy and hopefully find people that want to play. Its the constant we are behind and wait on your product I find demoralizing. Honestly except for 2 or 3 of the backer goodies. I'd rather bought this from a retailer and not be worried constantly. What has happened to the dollars I gave them and where is my product

[Killer Cyborg]

And, ponder this; what if they don't?

What if they have a smashing success at Gencon... and then Container 2 gets held up in customs for a month. And container 3 gets eaten by a Kaiju.

THAT would make all of this completely worthwhile!!

[Warshield73]

Well, What they have said has been overly optimistic. I dont think anyone can argue that.
But I dont fault PB for wanting and hoping to have this game in hand, as badly as I do.
And the fact is, this game goes way beyond anything they have
ever done. I dont consider it over the realm of possibility to say,
they got caught a bit off guard by the size of this task themselves.

Its not blind faith. But given the choice to be negative and complain,
or to show them support in this huge task, I choose to be positive.
I want to see this game be the biggest and best game ever, and
in the future see expansions to go with it.

Agreed Jimmy, but you can give it up with most of these people. It appears to me that most of the negative complainers here and on the KS comments never really wanted a game that people actually play. Most of them seemed to want some limited collectable that they could then turn around in sell to collectors. I say this without any proof or attribution but it's what I feel is true and that is all that seems to count them.

[Warshield73]

Funny I see several types of yes votes. I have heard of only two people that are saying no because they wanted to resell, yet the majority of no votes are because Kevin broke a promise. Go figure people wanting some one to actually honor what they say. Crazy thought, right?

He didn't promise to take you to the prom. This is not a promise that if he keeps it is going to inconvenience him or cost him some money. This is a promise he made with every intention of keeping it and with all the advice he was getting from ND and manufacturers. This is now a promise that if he keeps it could severely hurt this game or maybe even end it. I did not back this project to have some cool plastic toys on the shelf that no one else can get and no one else plays.

I think it is also important to point out that most of the no's were already raging screaming in January so the broken promise has nothing to do with it. Some people even say that they have been with PB until this, but if you look at there comment history you can see the opposite is true.

[Warshield73]

Funny I see several types of yes votes. I have heard of only two people that are saying no because they wanted to resell, yet the majority of no votes are because Kevin broke a promise. Go figure people wanting some one to actually honor what they say. Crazy thought, right?

He didn't promise to take you to the prom. This is not a promise that if he keeps it is going to inconvenience him or cost him some money. This is a promise he made with every intention of keeping it and with all the advice he was getting from ND and manufacturers. This is now a promise that if he keeps it could severely hurt this game or maybe even end it. I did not back this project to have some cool plastic toys on the shelf that no one else can get and no one else plays.

I think it is also important to point out that most of the no's were already raging screaming in January so the broken promise has nothing to do with it. Some people even say that they have been with PB until this, but if you look at there comment history you can see the opposite is true.

Why so angery if it ain't true? I mean I get it your cool with a broken promise, doesn't mean others have to be. Also hate to burst the bubble but I doubt this is going to hurt or help the game, palladium doesn't get taken all that seriously in this market. Fumbled release dates, poor marketing, techinphobia and the list goes on. You tell those mad to grow up and deal with well why not do the same. Get over it people are mad and people are happy Kevin broke a promies, suck it buttercup.

Not angry. I am giving my point of view and trying to inject some reality. I am not calling people names, buttercup, or trolling. I also admitted he was breaking the promise, I just said that if people really wanted this to be a success they should let it go.

I really have to ask why you are even here. I mean I really can not stand Pathfinder so I don't play it and I don't have an account on there forums. I know trolling can be fun but seriously. Didn't you say your not a backer and you clearly can't stand PB. Don't you have forums for things you actually like or are involved in?

[Warshield73]

Oh grow up. Like I said take a dose of your own meds. You aren't interjecting reality your forcing your opinion on others. You are as bad as the ones you are complaining about. Oh and to reburst your bubble I have everything pally has done. I have been on the forums forever, in fact I started one of the sticky threads in the phase world forums. So again suck it up man, let them vent. Otherwise you sound like a three year old screaming about the crying babies in the other room.

First, take your own advice. I didn't bother to search your comment history I only went by the posts I have seen and they were all negative and I am sorry but when I say something "is not be taken seriously" I usually am not a fan and don't purchase it. If this is in error I apologize but that is the impression you give. I am also not forcing my opinion on others, just giving my opinion just like you. Only in this case I am actually a backer.

As for your advice about letting them vent, I did that here and at KS comments for 6 months. I let them pretend to speak for the majority of backers and I will not anymore. They are annoying me every bit as Kevin is annoying them, so I am telling them why.

[Warshield73]

And yet here you are still doing just that.

Still doing what?

[Shark_Force]

Frankly, someone who hasn't had hundreds or thousands of dollars tied up in this and been fed line after line for the last 14 months really doesn't understand the issue.

Being entirely objective is great in a purely scientific fashion, but people are not entirely rational creatures, and trying to treat a complex situation with thousands of people and practically millions of dollars tied to it is missing the forest for the trees.

It's great to have an outsiders view, but the lack of 'skin in the game' also means there are nuances that you simply are not going to feel or recognize.

15-20% negativity is certainly a minority, but it's not like it's five or ten guys and gals railing against the darkness here either, and regardless of the final numbers, I sincerely hope PB gives a lot of thought to how they treat the backer community going forward.

so you acknowledge that your position is completely irrational, then?

you certainly have a right to feel upset. i can understand being upset. like i said, if i hadn't already shielded myself from disappointment in terms of PB release dates, i would be upset about a lot of stuff PB does, too.

but really, "I'm making a bad decision because I'm not a rational creature" is a terrible way of living your life, as far as i'm concerned. if you know it's a bad decision, then why are you trying to push other people to also want to make that bad decision? heck, why aren't you examining yourself and asking why *you* seem to want this bad decision to be made.

in a strange way, i can actually relate more to the people who want to resell and are upset about this; the decision directly impacts them in a negative way, and there certainly isn't anything like a guarantee that this will increase the demand nearly as much as it would have benefitted them to have a limited supply on the market. them wanting other people to make a decision that is overall bad, but probably better for them (in the short term, at least) makes sense.

but if you know it's not a reasonable decision to make, why would you be pushing for it for everyone else?

that sounds an awful lot like people being angry and miserable and wanting everyone else to be angry and miserable too, and that sounds *exactly* like the sort of situation where stepping back and looking at things objectively is *more* important, not less. you might miss some nuances, but that's better than making a bad decision that will harm everyone.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

One thing is a safe bet , it will be on ebay minutes after the first one is sold at gen con.

[jreece06]

My "level of anger" is at "this bothers me"... I don't know why anyone would want the game to fail.. I certainly don't as I got a chance to play it at Anime North with my wife, and we both enjoyed it very very much. That said, I doubt very many people up here will even see it (other than the backers) because of how few shops up here even carry PB products AT ALL.

I don't think its wrong for people to be pissed off that they were lied to. I understand WHY, and frankly, I don't care why. I agree, it's a promise Kevin should probably have never made. But it's one he did make with the intention of calming people down who were already upset about delays.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned. Maybe my morality (as sparse as it is) is antiquated... but I still believe a man is only as good as his word.

[Jorel]

Kevin's word seams too full of wishful thinking, and not enough reality to trust.

[Jorel]

A) Kryptt, man, what's with this "greetings and salutations" stuff? Did you sustain a concussion recently?

He has taken note on how Prysus posts...or he is trying to become him. I think he forget the farewell part.

[Jorel]

Funny I see several types of yes votes. I have heard of only two people that are saying no because they wanted to resell, yet the majority of no votes are because Kevin broke a promise. Go figure people wanting some one to actually honor what they say. Crazy thought, right?

I know I am let down that I cannot trust anything newswise coming out of Palladiums camp. Too much crying wolf and lying to themselves. Or just plain talking without any knowledge of what they are claiming will actually happen. I'm better off not reading anything posted by Palladium crew.

[Jorel]

It was a lie to them, to the backers, and to everyone that the product was 98% complete for pre production. They just didn't realize they were lying at the time. Sooo sad that they have created this mess which was clearly avoidable.

[Forar]

Well, What they have said has been overly optimistic. I dont think anyone can argue that.
But I dont fault PB for wanting and hoping to have this game in hand, as badly as I do.
And the fact is, this game goes way beyond anything they have
ever done. I dont consider it over the realm of possibility to say,
they got caught a bit off guard by the size of this task themselves.

"Getting swept up in the moment" is one thing. I'll even overlook the 'omg we might get it early!' comment for that.

But when someone is given responsibility for a massive project, I don't want them sugar coating it and giving information based on how super excited they are. It's unprofessional, and causes undue issues down the road, as we're seeing day by day.

And container 3 gets eaten by a Kaiju.

THAT would make all of this completely worthwhile!!

... yeah to be fair I'd have a hard time complaining about that one.

I say this without any proof or attribution but it's what I feel is true and that is all that seems to count them.

It is shockingly fitting for this campaign. >.>

so you acknowledge that your position is completely irrational, then?

So, about that missing the forest for the trees...

Kindly read my post again, you seem to have missed some highly pertinent details.

[Ysabiau]

<snipped for brevity>

In this case, the above Hostess says to you "I'll seat you next", but then someone in a nicer suit walks in, and they give them a table right away.

Does this happen? Yes.
Is it illegal? no.
Is it good customer service? hell no.

Breaking trust with your customers is NEVER a good plan. It sets a precedent that you are willing to lie to your customer. How many restaurants would you frequent if you couldn't believe your server?

Exactly. It is basic respect for customers -- and in this, we are both customers and investors. Yes, we want the game to succeed, and we should also receive clear and honest information about its progress and be taken into account in the company's plans.

PB may create a bit of buzz at GenCon, but it will be extraordinarily small compared to the buzz that the backers will create online when they receive and start posting images of their figurines. A relatively small group of people attends GenCon, and maybe a hundred or so will be lucky enough to buy the figurines. I'm sure they'll be happy about it, but they will then pack away whatever they buy to assemble at a future date. And then they'll get on with their day.

A collectively massive group of people visits multiple websites that relate to their hobbies on a daily basis. Once the figurines ship out to backers, this audience will come across blogs and posts from thousands of those backers who are now discussing assembly and posting pictures. And then the backers will post blogs and images on gameplay and tournaments and express how happy they are that they backed the game. And thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people will gain knowledge of the game through the backers' posts.

This second audience is absolutely crucial for a company that relies heavily on word-of-mouth advertising -- especially outside the US, where stores don't often carry PB products.