Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Raiden

Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Raiden »

Fantasy line? They had a fantasy line?
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Spinachcat
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Forar wrote:And your example of people at a convention loving figures is equally irrelevant. As I noted, the demand for pre-assembled, pre-painted figures does not necessarily equate to demand for unassembled, unpainted figures.


I'm with Akashic Soldier on this one. [Quick, somebody get him a defibrillator!]

The secondary sale market for RTT might get flooded in the first six months, but it will be a different story a year later. The eBay market for minis is divided in 3 key groups - you get peeps like me who can't paint worth a poop and we look for pro-paints or really excellent paint jobs only AND you get artistic peeps who only go for raw untouched materials AND you get peeps who are collectors who want sealed never opened boxes.

The convention resale market is also going to be awesome. Most gamers have never heard of Palladium or the Kickstarter, but many have heard Robotech. I attend lots of cons and the live auctions can get crazy with people bidding. People get caught in the frenzy and bids often get out of control. I have no doubt that if a KS backer uses his head, they'll make their cash back easily, maybe double it.

I considered buying extra stuff just to flip it at cons.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

It's a gamble. It's possible that the 160 or so models I intend to sell off from my 310 will recoup a sizable chunk of cash that I put in (hell, I could even make money off it, when all is said and done), or if the game is a flop and half the backers toss their stuff onto ebay, we might struggle even make back half that. Hell, my group bought 8 Battle Cries and some add ons, 3 of which are mine, 1 of which I bought specifically to sell off (that has evolved, as noted, to roughly 1.5 boxes I intend to sell) because the S&H fees involved made it barely more expensive to get an 8th then to just eat the costs of shipping 7 (they had a serious math failure there).

Glad you feel optimistic, but it's not an absolute. The steady ebay market is indeed something, but what if 100,000 figures land there in a race to the bottom? 200,000? More? That demand is significant, but we're talking about a biblical flood of miniatures, in a scale that may or may not appeal to collectors (if they already have a pile of 1:72, 1:285 may not be an easy sell).

Believe me, I hope this goes off the rails. I hope I can make a couple grand selling off figures and laugh all the way to the bank. But the realistic view and the somewhat tenuous grasp this project has had on the 'game' aspect (which they haven't said much about officially in nearly a year, and apparently can't due to some reasons or another) is going to impact a large portion of both the supply and the demand.

And we simply don't know enough to really judge where that'll all shake out.

It could be great, it could be a flop, it could fall somewhere in between. Expecting it to be amazing based on faith alone is a good way to get burned with things like this.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jreece06 »

I think when all is said and done, we'll all be happy with THE GAME itself. I'm not good at models, or painting, and odds are my army will look like it was built by toddlers with Parkinson. But I can't wait to play with friends.

It seems to me however, that the main thing people have issue with doesn't really have much to do with the game itself, and more with the way it's been handled while in production.

The problem here is that even if there is a market for resale, collectors, and what have you... it's also confirmed what a lot of people say about Palladium as a COMPANY. (that being "it's a fun game, but a bad business")

Waiting on books is the number one reason I've ran into (from talking to people at cons and game shops) that people stop playing.

With this kickstarter, Palladium hit it huge. They had a chance to really impress a TON of people who AREN'T regular players/fans. The OP video shows that on that front, RRT has already failed. Instead of winning back (or getting new) fans, we have a group of people who post online, or make videos, about how much they suck.

Regardless of RRTs success once it's released... that's just not good for business.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Kryptt »

It's bad when the miniatures community is watching this project like a train wreck. It's not just the OP. Even at adepticon RRT was spoken about and from what I heard it wasn't positive. It's like the Bill Coffin testimonial all over again but instead of books it's models and even tho it might be over ten years old it's brand new to the minis community.

So jreece06 I think your right about the game already having failed because of PB. Yes we'll all be happy when we finally get our game, but wait till backers start making unboxing videos with seams and itty bitty parts all over, followed by how much PB sucks for ruining the dream. The game isn't out and already it's being labeled as a failure. I hope those guys are wrong despite what they say.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Steve Carroll »

So what did you hear?
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Forar
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

jreece06 wrote:It seems to me however, that the main thing people have issue with doesn't really have much to do with the game itself, and more with the way it's been handled while in production.


The reason we don't have many complaints about the game is because almost nobody knows anything about it.

We got some info during the campaign. And some reports from Adepticon 2013 and Gencon 2013 from people who played a bare bones, stripped down demo with a few models and a single sheet of rules.

That doesn't in any way guarantee that the game will extrapolate up to play well, quickly and enjoyably with 100+ models on the table.

We're mostly seeing complaints about the models and production because those are tangible things to critique. Seams, gaps, delivery delays, lack of significant info (despite the 'rather firm' delivery target ticking away) are all very real things. Other than "Mike's Rules" we don't even have more than a skeleton of the game itself to discuss, and while it's certainly not a universal sentiment, I know I and my friends/game group are growing increasingly concerned.

And no assertions from Palladium or those with faith "not to worry, it'll be great, just you wait and see!" are likely to sway that. If anything, the blind fervor is all the more off putting. I don't want to hear from Wayne or Alex or Kevin about how much they love it and think I'll love it. I want to see some concrete examples and make that decision for myself.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Kryptt »

Steve Carroll wrote:So what did you hear?


Mostly negative comments about PB (nothing that hasn't been said on the ks page). Some of the industry insiders are like many backers calling RRT a failur and PB a failur as well for mishandling the project and the lack of quality for the miniatures. Folks at adepticon were saying the same thing about PB putting out subpar models instead of multipart miniatures. Already RRT and PB have become a joke in the industry. One guy even mentioned how PB can show up at a con and with a strait face without laughing say their industry professionals. I can't say what companies these people represent but if your into TT games then you might know who they are. ;)

Anyways that's the jist of it.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Alpha 11 »

:?: I'm not getting this at all. They said the models weren't the final ones, were the prototypes, had been put together and taken apart, and put back together again. Of course they aren't going to look the best! Come on people, hear what they are saying! I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this. Yes, I'm a little upset at the delay. Yes they most likely got to excited and got ahead of themselves with the dates, I can deal. I honestly would rather they take extra time, and get it right, then for them to rush it, and it be bad. Also, have some people forgotten, there are like 4 companies involved in this: the China one, Ninja, Palladium, and then HG. That is a lot of back and fourth. China sends the info to Ninja, they send it to Palladium, and eventually to HG. If it was just 2 companies, it would most likely go a lot faster, but with 4, a lot more "red tap" to go though. Though I could be completely wrong about everything. That is just they way it seems to me. Am I wrong or missing something?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Alpha 11 wrote::?: I'm not getting this at all. They said the models weren't the final ones, were the prototypes, had been put together and taken apart, and put back together again. Of course they aren't going to look the best!

***Snip***

That is just they way it seems to me. Am I wrong or missing something?


Just that most every other company tries to put their best foot forward when showcasing a million dollar entry into a new genre at the biggest industry trade convention. They generally don't take refurbished minis and slap them onto any old set of bases they have laying around. If you can find a similarly funded project that did that, let me know.
Congratulations, Palladium Books. You just threw away a customer of 28 years because of how you handled Robotech Tactics.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

I'd still like to know where ninja division went to post kick starter. They were supposed to be the experts in 3rd modeling right? I get the feeling palladium covers for them.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Alpha 11 »

bielmic wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote::?: I'm not getting this at all. They said the models weren't the final ones, were the prototypes, had been put together and taken apart, and put back together again. Of course they aren't going to look the best!

***Snip***

That is just they way it seems to me. Am I wrong or missing something?


Just that most every other company tries to put their best foot forward when showcasing a million dollar entry into a new genre at the biggest industry trade convention. They generally don't take refurbished minis and slap them onto any old set of bases they have laying around. If you can find a similarly funded project that did that, let me know.


But then I feel they are in a catch 22 then. If they don't show people the lastest, they get people mad at them, so they show them the lastest, then they get mad, because it may not look the greatest. So what should it be then?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by The Beast »

Alpha 11 wrote:
bielmic wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote::?: I'm not getting this at all. They said the models weren't the final ones, were the prototypes, had been put together and taken apart, and put back together again. Of course they aren't going to look the best!

***Snip***

That is just they way it seems to me. Am I wrong or missing something?


Just that most every other company tries to put their best foot forward when showcasing a million dollar entry into a new genre at the biggest industry trade convention. They generally don't take refurbished minis and slap them onto any old set of bases they have laying around. If you can find a similarly funded project that did that, let me know.


But then I feel they are in a catch 22 then. If they don't show people the lastest, they get people mad at them, so they show them the lastest, then they get mad, because it may not look the greatest. So what should it be then?


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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Jerell wrote:I'd still like to know where ninja division went to post kick starter. They were supposed to be the experts in 3rd modeling right? I get the feeling palladium covers for them.


ND were the voices of the Kickstarter. PB was very up front about that. When the KS ended, ND's role, as far as I've read, became purely models and manufacturing/production support, maybe some other aspects, but PB are the head of the project. If you notice, ND's Facebook page parrots pretty much every snippet of news that PB puts out, particularly noting the KS updates. Go look at the PB facebook page; not even PB themselves have been doing that!

Reading the updates, and reading between the lines on the updates, it seems that there's been a bit of a rift in the relationship, and a bit of distancing from one another. The right, smart and professional thing to do it to adhere to their obligations, but it's hard to say they've 'gone anywhere' per se when they're still toeing the company line.

It's an aspect of the project we may never really know the full story on.

Alpha 11 wrote:But then I feel they are in a catch 22 then. If they don't show people the lastest, they get people mad at them, so they show them the lastest, then they get mad, because it may not look the greatest. So what should it be then?


Which is an no-win situation of their own making. They were the ones who waxed at length about the 'mouth watering minis' (another phrase that will probably haunt them for years). Sure, usual marketing hyperbole in place, but they really went on at length about 'world class sculptors' and about how 'final/98% done' everything was, about going to production in 45 days and delivering up to 2 months early.

As I've said a dozen times now, part of project management is managing expectations, and in that they have indisputably failed.

The official current delivering timeline is "early June, maybe May". In a *comment* (not even a newsletter or update) one of them let slip that it was 'June or July, like it's always been, which is incorrect. But even if we accept that, the end of July is barely 3 months away, and they still have to finish however many of the dozen molds they need for wave one, punch out hundreds of thousands of plastic sprues, load them and ship them across an ocean. I'm not even into manufacturing and I know that's not a swift process, and then they'll need to ship to thousands of backers (ideally all of the ones going out from their warehouse, but that seems like a pipe dream) in the weeks leading up to Gencon, one of the busiest times of the year.

THAT is the kind of thing I'm talking about. What they say and reality haven't been meshing up for going on a year now. It's not impossible that they'll get boxes wrapped up and fired off, but it'll probably take a miracle at this point.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by bielmic »

Alpha 11 wrote:
bielmic wrote:
Alpha 11 wrote::?: I'm not getting this at all. They said the models weren't the final ones, were the prototypes, had been put together and taken apart, and put back together again. Of course they aren't going to look the best!

***Snip***

That is just they way it seems to me. Am I wrong or missing something?


Just that most every other company tries to put their best foot forward when showcasing a million dollar entry into a new genre at the biggest industry trade convention. They generally don't take refurbished minis and slap them onto any old set of bases they have laying around. If you can find a similarly funded project that did that, let me know.


But then I feel they are in a catch 22 then. If they don't show people the lastest, they get people mad at them, so they show them the lastest, then they get mad, because it may not look the greatest. So what should it be then?


Option C: Since they pay for the GAMA booth months ahead of time and have lots of lead time, they plan ahead and have high quality prints of the minis and, if needed, the correct bases. Someone who is experienced with minis (like their supposed minis lead guy or even someone at ND) spends the single evening it takes to properly assemble the minis and base them nicely.

This of course takes a bit more forethought and effort to properly execute than refurbing mediocre quality prints and glueing them on whatever they have laying around.
Congratulations, Palladium Books. You just threw away a customer of 28 years because of how you handled Robotech Tactics.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Kryptt »

With no update in over a week more backers whose names I've never seen are popping up. In both ks comments sections.

Times like this I'm glad I'm a macross fan and left RT back with the 80's. All I ever wanted to know was what really happened to the people on megaroad 1. Now I know. Thanks to the fact that macross stories are still being made and Mac fans have all kinds of neat extremely well engineered valkyries toys.

I clicked on the link from the OP and now it says private. Guess some folks scared him of maybe. I saw on FB how he said he was disgusted with himself for defending PB because now he feels betrayed by PB.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been moved over to the RRT subforum. You know to hide the disgruntled non fans as some have labeled us. Which I guess means I'm not a real fan and anything I say will be dismissed. Talk about lousy customer service. :badbad:
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