Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Juce734 »

Here is a video I saw about Robotech Kickstarter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efip7yLiwLQ
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

Really he couldn't have waited til he could talk?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Grug »

Of course he couldn't wait. Even a fire could not contain his rage.
Honestly though I couldn't make it through the whole video. How this whole thing is going gives me a sad...
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

There are a lot of people creating more drama for some of it and Palladium is definitely responsible for the whole image the community has of them right now.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by zyanitevp »

There is no way I was going to listen to this guy repeat himself for 15 minutes...
However, I cannot say that he has no valid points.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Juce734 »

It's just sad how unhappy most people seem the last couple years. Feels like it is getting worse.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by DhAkael »

Juce734 wrote:It's just sad how unhappy most people seem the last couple years. Feels like it is getting worse.

It is. :nh:
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

And until they begin to deliver on RRT, I imagine it's going to continue to hover in negative territory for months yet to come. We're roughly 4 months from that, and even if things go smoothly from production to shipping, it may well be close, with a single minor delay throwing everything out of synch.

Getting Wave One done and shipped out in a timely fashion wouldn't undo the past year's shenanigans, but it'd be a fine start, and probably buy them at least until the end of the year in breathing room for Wave Two (which is conveniently the current target for delivery of that as well).
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

He has another video out here and it is a bit less scathing and he is actually asking Palladium to come on his show and defend their reasoning for doing this or some such. I gotta admit 15 minutes is a bit more than I can sit through of that at a time so I had a few distractions and may have missed something in there.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

I'd like to reserve judgment about how poseable and easy or hard they go together until after I make a few. Judging from the latest weekly RRT report with the pictures of the artillery pod sprues it looks about how I imagined it would. Now mind you I've built 5 different GW armies through the years, and also built a lot of model tanks (1/32 to 1/72) and ships (1/1700). That being said the battle pod sprues don't look overly complicated to me. It looks like a straight forward build even without instructions.

I would like to see if there are any gaps to fill in the completed, final model once assembled, that'll be key for me. As I don't mind a little trimming or filing if needed, I don't want to be filling gaps however.

I look forward to getting my hands on my battle cry and the rest for a full assessment. From what I can see on the released BP spure though, I think things are on track. Plastic models are also easy to convert compared to resin and metal, so if anyone wants to go for advanced conversions they should have a fairly easy time. In fact I look forward to seeing what people do once the models are out.

Balancing poseability, detail and ease of assembly is a delicate thing. Again I want to reserve a true opinion for after I get my hands on a final production sprue and assemble it myself. I'm pleased by what I see so far though.

Edit - Though, to be fair I haven't had to deal with exposure to fumes from a car fire recently. I'm suddenly reminded of two colloquialisms, Hetzers gonna Hetz, and haters gonna hate.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

I feel that way as well. I'll reserve judgement about what I don't like til I see it. As far as I am concerned it is too late for changes and all these people asking them to change anything major at this stage of the game are wasting a lot of time and energy.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Untrue.

As I have already pointed out on KS; just because it might be too late for Wave One, doesn't mean it's too late for Wave Two.

They aren't even finished the W1 models yet, and may be half a year or more from being at the same point with W2.

So no, concerns about the figures aren't irrelevant, because there are still 2 dozen+ figures that shouldn't be anywhere near the point of no return.

Edit: and bluntly, whatever leeway this project is given on W1, any similar shenanigans with W2 will be flat out unacceptable. None of this "they don't know any better". Oh, they know better now.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

I wonder if a fair amount of people would prefer fewer pieces over more detail on the pieces? I have a feeling that would be on an individual basis and fairly divisive depending on the type of war gamer you are... or are not for that matter. I still want to physically see it all, and put it together first.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Which is fair.

It's also a point at which it's too late to voice ones concerns in the hopes of having changes applied.

It is too late for Wave one.

It is not too late for Wave two.

If you are fine with this, great. Means you'll probably be fine with 'better' versions that make other backers happier as well. But some other backers aren't necessarily happy with this version, and 'waiting to see them on the table' isn't likely to sweeten their view.

Maybe it will. Maybe not. But if there are concerns, now is the time to express them.

So was months ago, but while some people had reservations, we didn't know the true scope/scale of the things to be concerned by.

Whelp, we're passed that now.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jaymz »

My biggest issue with whole thing is time more than anything else.

Thankfully I only have a total of 96 coming. i will likely look to buy a few of each things I don't have in my Battlecry, (maybe more for things like Z Infantry) and some extra Destroids to make my Tomahwak variants using other destroid arms etc.

As for the guys video...yeah it was painful but honestly, who cares? The slamming and mocking the guy got from some people who seemed to have found Jesus (or in this Kevin I suppose) since update 134/5 is uncalled for as some of THEM were just as P.O.'ed as this guy is. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me to be up in arms then suddenly not be and mock someone else for being so.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

I was irritated with the piece count and I still am, not pissed. I still think it laughable that he was so bent he was gonna give up Kickstarter because of Palladium, so what? I was pissed they were treating the Backers poorly by not communicating...and guess what...they communicated and even gave answers to people who couldn't even come up with the questions themselves. In like 1500+ comments, they never tried to actually solve their problems they were just gonna keep on *****. SO now that they have some answers and I am less pissed, but still irked. So what? I'm not going on multiple pages and trashing you like you keep doing to me. Stop and grow up and if you really have issue with me send a PM don't go around trying to act like I am somehow all of a sudden in love with the PB business practices. I think they suck, but they are not likely to change so it is time to move on and fight a different fight.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jaymz »

O.o I did not name names Jorel. Furthermore if you think you are the only one I have called out about this then you need to check your ego because believe me you are not as important to me as you seem to think you are.

from some people


You know? As in more than one.

Edit - Furthermore, 2 pages hardly constitutes a smear campaign. Especially when the things pointed out are true. The fact you take that much offense should indicate maybe you need to take a look in the mirror as opposed to getting pissy with me about it.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

you did it to me a couple times and what I see is different than you. I don't start saying people are coming to jesus. That is pretty insulting and you still admit to lumping me in there.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

I take offense at how you are attacking me on several pages. Look at yourself in the mirror. You keep doing it so it isn't just 2 pages.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jaymz »

So? That is because I feel you fit that category. However, I did not call you out by name or single you out as you did to me above. You disagree with my opinion? Fine. That is your right. Doesn't change mine and singling me out as you have are now still doing indicates more about you than it does me.

Also it IS two pages. One facebook group and the Kickstarter page is where I called you out. One. Two. I never called you out here but you certainly had no problem singling ME out which last I checked is against forum rules. I am quite happy with what I see in the mirror thanks. :ok:
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

Forar wrote:Which is fair.

It's also a point at which it's too late to voice ones concerns in the hopes of having changes applied.

It is too late for Wave one.

It is not too late for Wave two.

If you are fine with this, great. Means you'll probably be fine with 'better' versions that make other backers happier as well. But some other backers aren't necessarily happy with this version, and 'waiting to see them on the table' isn't likely to sweeten their view.

Maybe it will. Maybe not. But if there are concerns, now is the time to express them.

So was months ago, but while some people had reservations, we didn't know the true scope/scale of the things to be concerned by.

Whelp, we're passed that now.


:bandit: I agree with that.

And as to moving on, I was looking at the Battle Pod sprue for most of what I posting about earlier. Now, looking at the seems on the Tomahawk, that does seem a bit much on the front. Perhaps from here forwards, seems can try to be more 'hidden' (if not minimized or eliminated) on the sides?

Also I was wondering, what exactly is Ninja Division's involvement? I suppose I should look and try to see what their part is in the process to fully understand who is making what decisions. In that way maybe we could have a civil conversation with the part of the team making the calls on what we're concerned about.

My impression up to this point had been ND was making the model designs and (besides making the rules and the game itself) Palladium was doing quality control on them before HG does final sign off. Am I in the ballpark here?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

this from the KS Update where Wayne answers some of the questions...
Wayne Smith wrote:What are the plans to support this game at launch? Will the Megaversal Ambassador system be used to help spread and advertise the game?

The folks at Soda Pop/Cipher Studios/Ninja Division will be lending their experience and helping us establish and improve our organized play program. The Megaversal Ambassadors will be the backbone of that program. They are a group of volunteers who run demos and regular games in their local stores, as well as conventions they attend. Most of them, and many new applicants, are eager to start running Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games and demos, and we will do all we can to support them and coordinate their efforts.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Jorel wrote:I was irritated with the piece count and I still am, not pissed. I still think it laughable that he was so bent he was gonna give up Kickstarter because of Palladium, so what?


From what I remember in both videos he was giving up on Kickstarter because he's tired of projects (like this) that misrepresent themselves and then come out very different from how they were listed. This was just the straw that broke the camel's back in his case.


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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Jerell wrote:My impression up to this point had been ND was making the model designs and (besides making the rules and the game itself) Palladium was doing quality control on them before HG does final sign off. Am I in the ballpark here?


To hear it be told around this time last year? ND were going to run the KS campaign, were providing the miniatures aspect (digital sculpts, connections for getting the figures produced, etc) and providing support to the competitive scene (tournaments, for example, as they seem to be regularly at Adepticon). To hear PB tell it early last year, all they were doing was giving a little input on the rules and providing the license. Maybe a bit more, but ND was doing all the heavy lifting.

Fast forward to the end of the campaign, ND went from highly communicative to comparative silence. It took months (half a year, roughly?) to even get an RRT subforum here on the official forums. Until then, threads kind of floated in the Robotech subforum and All Things Palladium.

Fast forward to today, we've spent nearly a year hearing about all the work being done by the Palladium crew on the rules, Ninja Division seems to be professionally distancing themselves from PB, PB no longer has them listed as running the competitive scene.

We may never know entirely what happened behind the scenes, but it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that there have been some changes to the status quo and the expectations for the product line going forward.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jaymz »

Yeah i am not sure what to make of it all at this point. On one hand we have Wayne, usually a pretty stand up and forthright guy, telling us ND is going to help but on the other we have ND seemingly trying to distance themselves as ,much as possible from Palladium and RRT......

I know as of right now I am the only person who is going to actually have any RRT stuff at all once I get it in my area of nearly 80 000 people and one game store. However the organizer of the local con has been asking me about it on and off as he would like to see it run.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Sureshot »

As I have said people don't like it when any company takes their money and does not deliver the promised product. It's not just RTT kickstarter. It seems that too many people thought it was a easy way to get their product funded and possibly deciding they could cut corners. I kickstarted a few products. I too am being very wary of kickstarter. It was and in certain cases a good idea. Just that a few rotten eggs spoiled the concept.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Kryptt »

Forar wrote:Which is fair.

It's also a point at which it's too late to voice ones concerns in the hopes of having changes applied.

It is too late for Wave one.

It is not too late for Wave two.

If you are fine with this, great. Means you'll probably be fine with 'better' versions that make other backers happier as well. But some other backers aren't necessarily happy with this version, and 'waiting to see them on the table' isn't likely to sweeten their view.

Maybe it will. Maybe not. But if there are concerns, now is the time to express them.

So was months ago, but while some people had reservations, we didn't know the true scope/scale of the things to be concerned by.

Whelp, we're passed that now.


The sad thing is I don't think wave two will fare any better. Many foolishly thought PB was changing for the better with this project. Did anything change? Nope, it's business as usual. Someone will probably once again approve subpar mould designs for whatever reasons, and we'll be told to shut up peasants/cabal/troll.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

I don't know about all that exactly, but I did think, that Palladium was being supported by people who had experience with miniatures (ND). I would like to know if that is still true.

Jaymz, I hear you, I got a battlecry and then some coming. I have a feeling I'll be able to find games in my area once the games out though. Especially if the game is as fun as it looks like it's going to be on youtube.

I've been waiting for a game like this for decades, I'm still excited to paint up my Zentraedi strike group. I don't like building, but I do like painting.

Forar wrote:Fast forward to the end of the campaign, ND went from highly communicative to comparative silence.


Yeah, I think that's what's been kind of bothering me, what happened to those guys? :bandit: We haven't heard anything from them in quite a long time, eh? They're still supporting this, correct?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Kryptt wrote:The sad thing is I don't think wave two will fare any better. Many foolishly thought PB was changing for the better with this project. Did anything change? Nope, it's business as usual. Someone will probably once again approve subpar mould designs for whatever reasons, and we'll be told to shut up peasants/cabal/troll.


Well, as I've pointed out before, the first wave represents 12 different figures (at my count). It will have taken roughly 16 months to deliver on those. And we're supposed to believe that the other 24'ish figures of Wave 2 will be done... in 4 months (Sept-Dec, August is likely a write off due to Gencon).

I too had held hopes that PB might turn things around. Clearly, I was mistaken.

Jerell wrote:Yeah, I think that's what's been kind of bothering me, what happened to those guys? :bandit: We haven't heard anything from them in quite a long time, eh? They're still supporting this, correct?


Once the campaign ended, PB took over communication for the campaign. They answer the messages, write the updates, and make comments. While they rarely comment in an update itself, I don't believe they've commented in the general comments section since May of last year when ND still held the reins.

Far as we know, they're still doing any necessary model work, and one update included a note that one of the big names at ND said they might duck down to PB's warehouse to help out when the pallets for wave one started arriving.

However, ND has become quietly distant about the project. Oh, they parrot the updates from PB, and everything I've heard someone report (from Facebook, from meeting them in person, etc) generally indicates that they seem to be in a highly diplomatic mode; as in, they're excited about the project, can't wait for the backers to get their stuff, think it's awesome, etc, but with PB now taking lead on communications, that may be contractually obligated. And/or just good professionalism.

But if you read the updates, a few months ago the 'standard' RRT section changed from how ND would be taking care of the competitive scene, to how PB and their Megaversal Ambassador program would be taking care of it. After roughly 9 months, that was an abrupt change in stance. There's been a couple of updates that seemed to be placing the blame on ND for a given delay or issue, but as the project managers it's PB's responsibility to keep on top of potential issues, to communicate clearly to the backers, and honestly with their reputation/history of delays, I'm more inclined to give ND the benefit of the doubt before I'd extend that courtesy to PB.

I'll freely concede that some or even many of the delays may be tied to ND's actions, and it's further 'not impossible' that out of sheer professionalism, PB isn't simply throwing them fully under the bus, but from what we've read, seen and a little reading between the lines, I'm less inclined to leave messages for them than I am PB.

Oh, and NMI trolling their Facebook page with questions about RRT. That didn't exactly help PB's case in my eyes either.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jerell »

Ah, I see. Quite understandable really. That being said, I myself am more... call it suspicious, if you will, of ND at this time. :bandit:

If I may, I'm going to be optimist here and continue to believe this is going to be a great game when I get it. Until such time as I get my hands on and can test it myself.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Alpha 11 »

:-( This is really bad guys. Maybe they should have gone with less detail, so they could get it out the door fast?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Akashic Soldier »

Alpha 11 wrote::-( This is really bad guys. Maybe they should have gone with less detail, so they could get it out the door fast?


Nah. They promised us a high level of detail and a quality product. Its common sense that its better to accomplish that than produce and inferior quality product and not be able to move it. For all the complaints, the reality is that if the Robotech Tactics game provides us with accurate miniatures (or scale models as some people are calling them) and they'll sell. After all, scale models for Macross have had a pretty stable market for sometime and people are still producing them. Even if "gamers" fully reject the system (which I doubt they will) and sell them on eBay like the guy in this video intends to do folks who want them for collectables, modeling or Battletech.

In my opinion, you need only look at the profit of the Kickstarter to see that hardly anyone has pulled out. This will be a fun game and as popular as we all help it become. I mean, outrage and outcry is all too common these days. So much of it is an overreaction in my opinion. If people just chill out and wait (like I am doing) then they can form their opinions based on their personal experience instead of presuppositions.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Blaming the victim and belittling people with valid concerns is still a popular passtime I see.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Akashic Soldier wrote:Nah. They promised us a high level of detail and a quality product. Its common sense that its better to accomplish that than produce and inferior quality product and not be able to move it. For all the complaints, the reality is that if the Robotech Tactics game provides us with accurate miniatures (or scale models as some people are calling them) and they'll sell. After all, scale models for Macross have had a pretty stable market for sometime and people are still producing them. Even if "gamers" fully reject the system (which I doubt they will) and sell them on eBay like the guy in this video intends to do folks who want them for collectables, modeling or Battletech.

In my opinion, you need only look at the profit of the Kickstarter to see that hardly anyone has pulled out. This will be a fun game and as popular as we all help it become. I mean, outrage and outcry is all too common these days. So much of it is an overreaction in my opinion. If people just chill out and wait (like I am doing) then they can form their opinions based on their personal experience instead of presuppositions.


I can respect that. I'm all for a reasonable delay to make sure we get a quality product with a reasonable level of detail. That being said, my only real issue at this time is the extent of the seems shown on the front of some of the Destroids. Now even if the seams as recently shown are there to such an extent, I'll be able to take care of them, though it will be a pain. I'm not a fan of seem/gap filling, so I can understand some apprehension on the part of inexperienced modelers up to the veteran war gamer. Filling seams and gaps does take some time investment (which I would rather use to paint the model).

:bandit:

I share the opinion that overreaction in general these days, does seem too common. For me personally, my investment in RRT is going much, much better than my last business investment. PB and/or ND needs an extra 6 months? I'm okay with that, as long as I end up with a reasonable product in the end. That being said, I truly hope the powers that be can keep seems off the front 'main body' of the models whenever practical going forward from here. Or if they are there that they fit tightly. I'm still impressed by how the Zentraedi look.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Steve Dubya »

Akashic Soldier wrote:In my opinion, you need only look at the profit of the Kickstarter to see that hardly anyone has pulled out.

Palladium and/or Ninja Division have posted the costs associated with this project so that can be compared to the amount taken in? Cool, link?

But I was under the impression that Palladium wasn't giving refunds at this time.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Jorel »

It has been repeatedly stated on the KS page by all those who have contacted Palladium that they are not giving out refunds to those requesting them. I don't know that I have seem Palladium respond officially but I have seen a ton of posts by people saying they tried to contact them and were denied. I think Zero was the most vocal as he called the office and then immediately went on the KS Updates page and Wayne Smith was on there almost immediately trying to retort Zero. Not denying the no refund policy, but denying Jeff had used certain language. Wayne hasn't taken the time to comment in those sections for any other reason of late, but he did post on there to deal with that.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Jerell wrote:If I may, I'm going to be optimist here and continue to believe this is going to be a great game when I get it. Until such time as I get my hands on and can test it myself.


Go for it! That's not an unreasonable stance to take, and I wish I shared in your optimism! I've described myself as "cautiously optimistic" since the start. Sadly, these days it's less optimistic, and more cautious.

Alpha 11 wrote::-( This is really bad guys. Maybe they should have gone with less detail, so they could get it out the door fast?


Like many things, I could see it on a sliding scale. If they could've sacrificed 5% of the detail to save a couple months? Sure, at this scale that'd barely be noticeable up close, and practically impossible to tell at a distance (such as on the table top). 10%? 20%? That becomes a tougher call.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Even if "gamers" fully reject the system (which I doubt they will) and sell them on eBay like the guy in this video intends to do folks who want them for collectables, modeling or Battletech.


If gamers reject the system, the product will be a complete failure. The "gamers" are the ones that will be buying dozens or even hundreds of figures to play with. Most "collectors" are unlikely to desire even a fraction of those numbers, and will be balancing cost and assembly versus all the other models that already exist (and they might already have). They don't want to produce this entire line for people to just buy a couple expansion packs.

It's my understanding that Battletech is generally not played on nearly the same scope of games; having a couple of Warhammers and Riflemen (one Destroid pack) is a hefty chunk of tonnage for a game, as opposed to being roughly 1/4 of a 'standard' army that it reflects in RRT. I highly doubt their business model is predicated on it being totally fine for gamers to pass on the game and to rely simply on RPG players, collectors and battletech players.

In my opinion, you need only look at the profit of the Kickstarter to see that hardly anyone has pulled out. This will be a fun game and as popular as we all help it become. I mean, outrage and outcry is all too common these days. So much of it is an overreaction in my opinion. If people just chill out and wait (like I am doing) then they can form their opinions based on their personal experience instead of presuppositions.


Regarding your first statement: What? You do realize that the KS total doesn't change up and down with PB's bank statement, right? We have no idea how much funding they have left. The project was highly successful, but across roughly 36 different figures, admissions that the molds were twice as expensive as they thought they'd be, and needing to do 2 waves of shipping, they've already admitted that costs are significantly higher than originally anticipated.

And while you're also entitled to your optimism, your belief that the game will be fun and popular don't automatically make it so. Aside from the playtesters and Mike, few (if any) backers or outside folks have seen the rules aside from the bare bones demo set from Gencon and Adepticon 2013. Adepticon 2014 would've been a great opportunity to show the updated rules off, some more options in use, etc, but that opportunity has come and gone. Gencon will be the next opportunity, but since Backers are supposed to get their boxes in July and that happens in August, we'll already have the rules. ;-)

As for the recent responses, that is, in my opinion, tied to the ongoing lavishly glowing updates and newsletters PB has been putting out. They've been building hype about the quality and accuracy of their figures for over a year now, so to finally see something with glaring flaws injected some harsh reality where that optimism was. I'm by no means an expert modeler. I've never even used 'green stuff', so when even some of the expert miniatures folks out there are eyeing each other nervously, I don't think it's unreasonable to be wary of the outcome of my amateur efforts with issues needing this much attention.

And Palladium has told people repeatedly that they will not be issuing refunds. Some people have stated that they've had success with chargebacks through their banks/credit cards, but we have no idea how many or to what extent those refunds have entailed.

There've also been a number of people selling their pledges, or at least offering publicly to do so, ranging from a single Battle Cry to $1,500+ worth of stuff.

It's sort of a funny catch-22; if it's 'just a few backers', why not toss them the cash to get them out of everyone's hair? If it's a sizable number of folks, well, that would put a bit of a dent in the 'it's only a few whiners!' stance some have taken. And others have projected that perhaps they don't have the funding on hand, which I would be appalled by. If making wave one ate up $1.5m or so in funding, then Wave Two with another 24'ish figures is going to take a hell of a lot longer than the 4 months that are currently projected.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Hotrod »

I have no skin in this game, and I've never seen any Robotech shows or read the books, but I got to play one of the demo games at Fanfare back in October, and it was fun.

I'm no wargamer, but the rules were fairly intuitive, with enough wrinkles to keep things interesting. I might pick up a copy to play with my son, if the price is right.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Glad to hear it. Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by jreece06 »

I loved the game when I played it. But honestly my biggest issue is the time. If they had said "get, it's a big project, might be up to a year to complete to our high standards" I'd have still backed the project... and not be so mad right now
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Akashic Soldier »

Jerell wrote:I can respect that. I'm all for a reasonable delay to make sure we get a quality product with a reasonable level of detail. That being said, my only real issue at this time is the extent of the seems shown on the front of some of the Destroids. Now even if the seams as recently shown are there to such an extent, I'll be able to take care of them, though it will be a pain. I'm not a fan of seem/gap filling, so I can understand some apprehension on the part of inexperienced modelers up to the veteran war gamer. Filling seams and gaps does take some time investment (which I would rather use to paint the model).


Wasn't it specifically explained by Wayne that they were crudely put together prototypes that were rushed? I've seen pictures since (and I am not even following this that much) and the seams are visible but I see no gaps.

Jerell wrote:I share the opinion that overreaction in general these days, does seem too common. For me personally, my investment in RRT is going much, much better than my last business investment. PB and/or ND needs an extra 6 months? I'm okay with that, as long as I end up with a reasonable product in the end. That being said, I truly hope the powers that be can keep seems off the front 'main body' of the models whenever practical going forward from here. Or if they are there that they fit tightly. I'm still impressed by how the Zentraedi look.


Seeing some positive thinking is so refreshing. Thank you so much! :ok:

Forar wrote:Most "collectors" are unlikely to desire even a fraction of those numbers.


About four (six?) years ago I went to a Macross convention in Brisbane and one of the most highly sort after things there were these little handcrafted Macross miniatures (they were about 5mm tall for the pilots and a few center-meters for the mechs). Everyone was huddled around them wanting them but because they were custom made there were not enough for everyone. One of the conversations I got into was specifically about how "cool" it would be to have a massive battle display on your shelf of a custom army. So I know there are folks out there that'd be very happy to pick them up. Heck, some collectors paid $50-80 per model (that is what people were bartering for! The freaking tiny automated coke machine went for $70 for crying out loud!).
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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jreece06 wrote:I loved the game when I played it. But honestly my biggest issue is the time. If they had said "get, it's a big project, might be up to a year to complete to our high standards" I'd have still backed the project... and not be so mad right now


Likewise. Possibly for less cash as well, which would've put me in an even further understanding mood. It's not just that it's late, and the ongoing communication (quantity and quality) issues, and that my crew backed for "a whole lot" based on the slick campaign and reassurances of how close to delivery they were, it's all of them combined.

Ideally, sometime in the last few days one of the updates would have very, very clearly noted that with all the extra work going on, December 2013 for full delivery was no longer an option, to give people time to adjust both their expectations and possibly their funding offered. Might it have cost them a little cash? Probably, but that would have also reduced their obligations as well. Win/Win: more time and at least some backers less cranky over both that and funding added.

Hindsight is 20/20, but they really, really should've noticed that they were rapidly expanding the line and backer obligations.

Akashic Soldier wrote:
Forar wrote:Most "collectors" are unlikely to desire even a fraction of those numbers.


About four (six?) years ago I went to a Macross convention in Brisbane and one of the most highly sort after things there were these little handcrafted Macross miniatures (they were about 5mm tall for the pilots and a few center-meters for the mechs). Everyone was huddled around them wanting them but because they were custom made there were not enough for everyone. One of the conversations I got into was specifically about how "cool" it would be to have a massive battle display on your shelf of a custom army. So I know there are folks out there that'd be very happy to pick them up. Heck, some collectors paid $50-80 per model (that is what people were bartering for! The freaking tiny automated coke machine went for $70 for crying out loud!).


So they were pre-made, by the sounds of it, which is an entirely different kettle of fish when compared to needing literally hundreds of hours to assemble, prime and paint the hundreds of figures necessary to have one of those massive battles.

If all of that work is already done I'm sure people would love to have massive epic battles, but that does not line up 1 to 1 with a product that requires simply immense amounts of prep time just to have a piece ready for the table, let alone well painted, and many gamers (in my experience) find the assembly and painting to be a highly daunting aspect of the hobby.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. The people who are ga-ga over pre-built, pre-painted (presumably) figures are not necessarily the same who are going to look at 400+ model sprues and say "Yup, that's totally doable and not in any way daunting!"

A collector having 2 or 4 Defenders is one thing. A tournament player who realizes they are the hottest thing around having 16 of them is something else. It's a matter of scale; the number of people making epic 200 figure dioramas is likely far fewer than gamers who might have 200+ figure collections just to play a variety of forces. And the collectors/modelers have already had decades of model kits to buy up and build, action figures to collect, etc. And the collectors can happily choose from ALL of those options, and go with whichever is most cost effective, matches their desires/existing collection, and other aspects, which may or may not lead to them glancing RRTs way.

I'm sure they will represent a portion of the purchases. No argument there. But comparable to players who will likely strive to eventually have Battle Cry/Showdown/Reckless equivalent collections of their own? I highly doubt it'll represent more than a small fraction, especially since just a "Battle Cry" alone is somewhere around half a grand in figures for maybe 500 points per side (depending on upgrades and characters chosen). We got a really good deal, but at retail, getting 1000 points on the table per side is going to cost a *lot*.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Akashic Soldier »

Forar wrote:So they were pre-made, by the sounds of it, which is an entirely different kettle of fish when compared to needing literally hundreds of hours to assemble, prime and paint the hundreds of figures necessary to have one of those massive battles.


I think you were missing the point of my statement man. Go to eBay and google "Macross models". Then browse around the net. Even if the entire kickstarter bombs, people will be buying these for years to come to build battle scenes of manageable display size. Its not really comparing apples to oranges, we are talking about two different things.

You're talking about Tactics players being annoyed that they have to build the models and I am saying "I don't mind and I know there will be a market for them because I've seen people falling over themselves for miniatures that were significantly worse quality." I'm not saying those people who are upset about the miniatures not being pre-molded or pre-painted are stupid. My only stance on that is that I won't give any credence to the presuppositions anyone makes based off their experience with other models. I only want to hear about their experiences with THESE models. We can doomsay and speculate all day but until someone has worked with the models we can't say for sure its going to be as bad as people are making it out to be. Ya know?
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

"Being willing to buy some" and "being willing to buy 400 of them" are entirely different things. The need to assemble, prime and paint them add an extra barrier to entry for many people, gamers and collectors alike.

You keep saying that the industry is huge, and perhaps it is. But is it huge enough to eat half a million models hitting the market without choking? Because that demand would be challenged by a massive supply. And if it crashes in that regard, the retail stores are going to be mighty angry as they have to compete with people willing to sell for half of what they're listing for just to move product.

Your assertion is that even if "gamers" don't take to RRT, that collectors will fill in the gaps. A 'gamer' who got a showdown has 22 VTs coming to him. I highly doubt many collectors want 22 VTs.

The math simply doesn't track.

And your example of people at a convention loving figures is equally irrelevant. As I noted, the demand for pre-assembled, pre-painted figures does not necessarily equate to demand for unassembled, unpainted figures.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Akashic Soldier wrote:
Forar wrote:So they were pre-made, by the sounds of it, which is an entirely different kettle of fish when compared to needing literally hundreds of hours to assemble, prime and paint the hundreds of figures necessary to have one of those massive battles.


I think you were missing the point of my statement man. Go to eBay and google "Macross models". Then browse around the net. Even if the entire kickstarter bombs, people will be buying these for years to come to build battle scenes of manageable display size. Its not really comparing apples to oranges, we are talking about two different things.

You're talking about Tactics players being annoyed that they have to build the models and I am saying "I don't mind and I know there will be a market for them because I've seen people falling over themselves for miniatures that were significantly worse quality." I'm not saying those people who are upset about the miniatures not being pre-molded or pre-painted are stupid. My only stance on that is that I won't give any credence to the presuppositions anyone makes based off their experience with other models. I only want to hear about their experiences with THESE models. We can doomsay and speculate all day but until someone has worked with the models we can't say for sure its going to be as bad as people are making it out to be. Ya know?


I'm with you there. Let's wait so see the final product before we say if its going to be good or not. And while we are at it, I think it would be good for the people at Ninja and Palladium to maybe do a youtube video or something to address all the bad stuff that seems to be coming up. I still want the game, but I'm just getting a little worried about what some people are saying, that is all.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Like, anyone ever wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking, "What if RRT blows up so big Palladium doesn't want to do books for a while?" Cause I really need someone to get to work on the Old Kingdoms books.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Palladium releases books?

Sorry, low hanging fruit and whatnot, hopefully NG2 hits backer hands and store shelves soon, etc.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Forar wrote:Palladium releases books?

Sorry, low hanging fruit and whatnot, hopefully NG2 hits backer hands and store shelves soon, etc.


I'm with you there. But at least there is light at the end of the tunnel. So hopefully tommarows update will say it is going to the press this week or next.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

Unread post by Forar »

Tomorrow would be nice, but with it being a holiday weekend, I'm not holding my breath.

That said, updates were going out on Saturdays pretty regularly, so I wouldn't be shocked to see one in the Thurs/Fri/Sat range either, holiday or no.

But if wouldn't surprise me to have to wait another week again either.
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Re: Robotech Kickstarter Unhappy Customer

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Jerell wrote:Like, anyone ever wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat thinking, "What if RRT blows up so big Palladium doesn't want to do books for a while?" Cause I really need someone to get to work on the Old Kingdoms books.

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