Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 2015?

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Should Palladium Host a Conference Room at the Hotel in 2015?

Yes
18
82%
No
4
18%
 
Total votes: 22

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Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 2015?

Unread post by Jorel »

Do people think that Palladium should host a conference room or 2 for gamers to congregate in (whether it be to game or chat) after hours at the Hotel?
I know in past years there has been a good amount of both. I know people can get rather excitable when gaming and chatting and it is good to have a location for this away from where other people are trying to sleep in the block of rooms set aside for the gamers. I'm sure a few of those games will still happen, but it gives a place for strangers to meet up and chat and game with other strangers that wouldn't present itself if those conference rooms weren't available.
I know most of the gamers pick up after themselves and they all seemed extremely respectful to me. I'm not sure what beyond cost is the hesitation to getting the room(s). I don't think it will increase the cost of tickets to the event. It may be a small additional cost to the promoters (Palladium) and maybe some would be willing to help with that cost.
I really hope it does pan out and I hope people think of other people and not just themselves when voting. Even if you don't plan on using the rooms the whole night. What about for a few hours? What about for the peace of mind of not having a late night game in the room next to you? What about for those of us that like to roll dice with complete strangers in the middle of the night, but don't want to go find a Detroit alleyway? Some of us prefer the safety of a well lit conference room.


PS: I am posting this poll as I thought the other one currently happening didn't quite ask the question correctly.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I posted in the other topic regarding this, but I'll post here as well. So here it goes ...

First, I'll say I was hesitant to vote, because the truth is we don't know all the details. From the update that brought about these polls, it sounds like the Conference Room is a complication (or added headache), at least some degree. Still, after some debate, I decided to vote.

I said "Yes," in the concept I think they should at least try to obtain one. If there are complications that make it just not feasable (or more burden than its worth), then I'm fine with not having one. I realize that'll bum some out, but we're gamers ... and I'm fairly sure we'll figure out some way to work around it.

As for complications with the Conference Room, there are various possibilities. For one, they do cost money. Having worked Event Security before, I worked primarily in hotel conference rooms and exhibit halls ... and those things are not cheap. This is a small hotel though, so it might not be too bad. Additionally, it's possible someone else is trying to book them for some reason. This causes a scheduling conflict and/or possibly a bidding war (keep in mind if someone else is trying to schedule it, they might also be paying for things like AV, rent a big screen TV, etc. and those all add up to more money for the hotel). Again, don't know if this is the case, just that we don't know.

Additionally, there's the possibility the hotel thinks of us as a nuisance. Not because we're gamers, but because any time you get a large number of people having fun in a small area, they tend to get loud. I wasn't there for the last Open House, but I vaguely recall in 2010 a hotel staff member doing something (either talking to us, or doing some other actions) as a result of the noise. Just because 30 people are gathered in a conference room doesn't mean it keeps us from disturbing other guests. I'm not saying we're horrible, but I imagine our all night presence in the conference room (as well as running around back and forth for food or to our rooms for something) causes more activity (and headaches) than normal. If the hotel had been cutting PB any slack on the price, they may be trying to charge full price now (this may compound with other interest, if there is any).

That's just a couple off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more possibilities. With all that said ...

I don't think the Conference Rooms are essential to the Palladium Open House. However, I do think they enhance the experience and something I'm hoping is there if possible. I stated in the other thread it's not something I'll use much, and I mean it. Still, in 2010 (my first and only Open House to date), I remember spending a late of my late hours there, not because I was gaming (I didn't game at all during POH2010), but because it was an experience. In fact, I think it's something first timers should go out of their way to experience (at least once!). However, I think of it like going to Chicago and not trying a Stuffed Pizza from Giordano's (yes, I said "stuffed" and not "deep dish"). Sure you can still go to Chicago and have a great time, but you're also missing out on something memorable.

So while I say I'm fine without having a Conference Room, realize I am an advocate for them being there if possible. However, a couple other questions ...

1: Do you need both Conference Rooms? Or do you think one would suffice?

2: What if the Conference Room was only open from say ... 8pm to Midnight? This might give some time after most people leave the POH, yet not too late. This is more of a consideration for hotel employees and/or fellow guests. The hotel can also help save on money (but shutting off lights and such, and with businesses all those lights being on can add up). Does it really have to be the 24 hour availability?

Anyways, just some added thoughts. Thank you one and all for your time, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I'd be happy with one room, but prefer both. Also I'd prefer they go past midnight as I think a lot of us are night owls and midnight comes on real quick. Just ask Cinderella.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

Yes. The last time it was used a lot. It was great fun to go from the POH to the conference room. :)
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

He forgot the Tacos option for the poll.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by ffranceschi »

Jorel wrote:Do people think that Palladium should host a conference room or 2 for gamers to congregate in (whether it be to game or chat) after hours at the Hotel?
I know in past years there has been a good amount of both. I know people can get rather excitable when gaming and chatting and it is good to have a location for this away from where other people are trying to sleep in the block of rooms set aside for the gamers. I'm sure a few of those games will still happen, but it gives a place for strangers to meet up and chat and game with other strangers that wouldn't present itself if those conference rooms weren't available.
I know most of the gamers pick up after themselves and they all seemed extremely respectful to me. I'm not sure what beyond cost is the hesitation to getting the room(s). I don't think it will increase the cost of tickets to the event. It may be a small additional cost to the promoters (Palladium) and maybe some would be willing to help with that cost.
I really hope it does pan out and I hope people think of other people and not just themselves when voting. Even if you don't plan on using the rooms the whole night. What about for a few hours? What about for the peace of mind of not having a late night game in the room next to you? What about for those of us that like to roll dice with complete strangers in the middle of the night, but don't want to go find a Detroit alleyway? Some of us prefer the safety of a well lit conference room.


PS: I am posting this poll as I thought the other one currently happening didn't quite ask the question correctly.


I am with you in this one...I am not sure if I will be able to game after a full day but I definitely want to chat and meet people. Oh, and I am not going to do 5595 miles to "find an alleyway" :)
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

ffranceschi wrote:
Jorel wrote: Oh, and I am not going to do 5595 miles to "find an alleyway" :)


No doubt. It will be good to finally meet you.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

You may not want to recall the circumstance...but we have met a couple times in the past.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

Jorel wrote:You may not want to recall the circumstance...but we have met a couple times in the past.

hahahaha. Wow. I totally misquoted that one. Fail. How could I forget YOU, Jorel?

I was trying to state my excitement about meeting ffraneschi. Super jazzed about it.
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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I like it...looks like we swayed a no vote into a yes. I've never seen a 100% poll before with more than one vote. And here I was about to start asking for justifications for the no votes. They must have sensed it and switched.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by ffranceschi »

The Galactus Kid wrote:
ffranceschi wrote:
Jorel wrote: Oh, and I am not going to do 5595 miles to "find an alleyway" :)


No doubt. It will be good to finally meet you.


:-D
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

I may not use it but it should be there for others to mingle and associate
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

Are you planning on being there Jaymz? Man, we should really start an attendance thread.
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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

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ALAshbaugh wrote:Because DINOSAURS.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

there is kind of one started in the Open House forum asking attendees Nationality.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

The Galactus Kid wrote:Are you planning on being there Jaymz? Man, we should really start an attendance thread.



I am hoping to yeah. Is that a good or bad thing? :lol:
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I think it is a great thing
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

I am pretty sure for some, not so much :lol:

But no, as of right now I am planning to be there. There are number of people I want to meet in person, you Jorel and you TGK being two of them along with Ninjabunny and Shinitenshi as well as others. Hell I don't even care if game, I just want to meet you people. :D
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I care if I game. I didn't really get the chance at the last one. Hopefully it pans out in May as right now it is lookin like finances may be an issue, but if it does I'll be seeing Ninja and Shini this year as well.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

Jorel wrote:I care if I game. I didn't really get the chance at the last one. Hopefully it pans out in May as right now it is lookin like finances may be an issue, but if it does I'll be seeing Ninja and Shini this year as well.


:ok:
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

jaymz wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:Are you planning on being there Jaymz? Man, we should really start an attendance thread.



I am hoping to yeah. Is that a good or bad thing? :lol:

hahaha. It's a great thing. I can't think of a single person on the forums that I don't want to meet with in person. Even if we've had our disagreements on the internet, almost all Palladium fans I've met are fun and awesome people to be around and I genuinely enjoy meeting and hanging out with them. Putting a face with the screen name is also cool.
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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by mumah »

The Galactus Kid wrote:

hahaha. It's a great thing. I can't think of a single person on the forums that I don't want to meet with in person. Even if we've had our disagreements on the internet, almost all Palladium fans I've met are fun and awesome people to be around and I genuinely enjoy meeting and hanging out with them. Putting a face with the screen name is also cool.


I want to echo that sentiment. Finally you wrote something worth publishing. :twisted:
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

You guys need to work on figuring out the quote thingy.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by mumah »

I hadn't had coffee yet, leave me alone. Fixed.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

Jorel wrote:You guys need to work on figuring out the quote thingy.

NO U
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Ziggurat the Eternal wrote:I'm not sure if its possible, but if it isn't, then possible will just have to get over it.

Ninjabunny wrote:You are playing to have fun and be a part of a story,no one is aiming to "beat" the GM, nor should any GM be looking to beat his players.

Marrowlight wrote: The Shameless Plug would be a good new account name for you. 8-)

ALAshbaugh wrote:Because DINOSAURS.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Okay, I posted in the other topic regarding this, but I'll post here as well. So here it goes ...

First, I'll say I was hesitant to vote, because the truth is we don't know all the details. From the update that brought about these polls, it sounds like the Conference Room is a complication (or added headache), at least some degree. Still, after some debate, I decided to vote.

I said "Yes," in the concept I think they should at least try to obtain one. If there are complications that make it just not feasable (or more burden than its worth), then I'm fine with not having one. I realize that'll bum some out, but we're gamers ... and I'm fairly sure we'll figure out some way to work around it.

As for complications with the Conference Room, there are various possibilities. For one, they do cost money. Having worked Event Security before, I worked primarily in hotel conference rooms and exhibit halls ... and those things are not cheap. This is a small hotel though, so it might not be too bad. Additionally, it's possible someone else is trying to book them for some reason. This causes a scheduling conflict and/or possibly a bidding war (keep in mind if someone else is trying to schedule it, they might also be paying for things like AV, rent a big screen TV, etc. and those all add up to more money for the hotel). Again, don't know if this is the case, just that we don't know.

Additionally, there's the possibility the hotel thinks of us as a nuisance. Not because we're gamers, but because any time you get a large number of people having fun in a small area, they tend to get loud. I wasn't there for the last Open House, but I vaguely recall in 2010 a hotel staff member doing something (either talking to us, or doing some other actions) as a result of the noise. Just because 30 people are gathered in a conference room doesn't mean it keeps us from disturbing other guests. I'm not saying we're horrible, but I imagine our all night presence in the conference room (as well as running around back and forth for food or to our rooms for something) causes more activity (and headaches) than normal. If the hotel had been cutting PB any slack on the price, they may be trying to charge full price now (this may compound with other interest, if there is any).

That's just a couple off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more possibilities. With all that said ...

I don't think the Conference Rooms are essential to the Palladium Open House. However, I do think they enhance the experience and something I'm hoping is there if possible. I stated in the other thread it's not something I'll use much, and I mean it. Still, in 2010 (my first and only Open House to date), I remember spending a late of my late hours there, not because I was gaming (I didn't game at all during POH2010), but because it was an experience. In fact, I think it's something first timers should go out of their way to experience (at least once!). However, I think of it like going to Chicago and not trying a Stuffed Pizza from Giordano's (yes, I said "stuffed" and not "deep dish"). Sure you can still go to Chicago and have a great time, but you're also missing out on something memorable.

So while I say I'm fine without having a Conference Room, realize I am an advocate for them being there if possible. However, a couple other questions ...

1: Do you need both Conference Rooms? Or do you think one would suffice?

2: What if the Conference Room was only open from say ... 8pm to Midnight? This might give some time after most people leave the POH, yet not too late. This is more of a consideration for hotel employees and/or fellow guests. The hotel can also help save on money (but shutting off lights and such, and with businesses all those lights being on can add up). Does it really have to be the 24 hour availability?

Anyways, just some added thoughts. Thank you one and all for your time, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



I voted yes.

Now here's a question, what time does the POH close at ?
I know I would like the option of having the conference room to run all night instead of until just midnight. Depending on what time the POH closes we could take the time to have a meal (it can be a pain to eat when traveling because of food allergies) and still have plenty of time to game in the conference room (if it was open passed midnight).

Now I know some people are probably thinking "just leave the POH early then". Yes we could do that, but who wants to travel all the way there and pay all that money just to miss parts of it ?

So my reasons in wanting an all night conference room may be specific and selfish but think of it this way, it's another yes vote to further your cause lol :mrgreen:
Last edited by Razzinold on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

I think the Conference room is for AFTER midnight Razz...
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I don't recall if the POH is done at 8 or closer to 10-11, but the conference rooms tend to be open as long as their is a Palladium rep there. I don't know how late they went, but I know they lock them up eventually and it is much later than midnight.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

@jaymz and Jorel - My post was supposed to be on the side of it being a 24 hour conference room, sort of opposing the post Prysus made when we suggested that maybe the conference room only be 8:00pm-Midnight.

I guess I should have quoted him and highlighted that part....... and now I've fixed that lol
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by jaymz »

:lol: :ok:
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. Yeah, I didn't know what the problem was on Palladium's and the hotel's side, so I was just throwing out ideas as potential solutions (not knowing the problem). Gathering info more than anything (to try and learn which aspects people found important and which they could do without). Seems that one was a bad idea. I accept that. :) Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. Yeah, I didn't know what the problem was on Palladium's and the hotel's side, so I was just throwing out ideas as potential solutions (not knowing the problem). Gathering info more than anything (to try and learn which aspects people found important and which they could do without). Seems that one was a bad idea. I accept that. :) Farewell and safe journeys to all.


Just because it didn't work for me doesn't automatically make your idea a 'bad one'. I admitted right from the start that I had my own selfish reasons for wanting the conference room to be open late. i would like to stay as late as I could at POH and still have time to have a decent meal before heading off to the conference room to meet some more people.

Speaking of meeting people, does everyone where name tags or what ? I've never been to POH (or any other con for that matter). I was thinking of wearing a Hello my name is... and list my name and board name. Is that something that everyone just knows to do (convention etiquette) or what ?
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

they give out name tags when you check in at the event.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

Jorel wrote:they give out name tags when you check in at the event.


With both names or people add that on their own ?

So I see you finally sussed out the 1 no vote and convinced them that it was in the best interest of their health to switch votes eh?
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by The Galactus Kid »

Razzinold wrote:
Jorel wrote:they give out name tags when you check in at the event.


With both names or people add that on their own ?

So I see you finally sussed out the 1 no vote and convinced them that it was in the best interest of their health to switch votes eh?

We normally add our own.

Also, I agree with you regarding the room being open late. It has normally been open well into the night, as I have convinced people to drive me to Del Taco or Coney Island well past midnight when we've been drinking around a table.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Razzinold wrote:
Jorel wrote:they give out name tags when you check in at the event.


With both names or people add that on their own ?

So I see you finally sussed out the 1 no vote and convinced them that it was in the best interest of their health to switch votes eh?

We normally add our own.

Also, I agree with you regarding the room being open late. It has normally been open well into the night, as I have convinced people to drive me to Del Taco or Coney Island well past midnight when we've been drinking around a table.



Ok I know that Del Taco is a restaurant but you mean Coney Island as in New York Coney Island?
How far of a drive is that ? Who knows if I go this year maybe it will be me you'll be convincing. I've never been to Detroit or New York and I don't drink so I would be sober and could drive you. Notice I said could not would :lol:
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by mumah »

Coney Islands in Detroit are diners.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

mumah wrote:Coney Islands in Detroit are diners.


That makes a little more sense, thanks Mike.

I haven't really traveled the USA much. Been to Florida a couple times, just over the boarder into Buffalo once and that's about it. Anywhere else I've traveled has been in Canada or places like the Dominican and Puerto Rico (which is technically a part of the USA it's just not a state).
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

Razzinold wrote:
Jorel wrote:they give out name tags when you check in at the event.


With both names or people add that on their own ?

So I see you finally sussed out the 1 no vote and convinced them that it was in the best interest of their health to switch votes eh?

That 1 no vote has been flippin and floppin the whole time. I am impressed myself that this poll is at 100% at times with getting close to 20 votes. On the other poll thread they guy made a joke that it is all my friends and family. I didn't really promote this anywhere except once on the Unofficial page and I have no idea why it is at 100%. Pretty cool though.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by zyanitevp »

I am planning our once/yearly get together at the Open House. This year, like last , we are getting together in Vegas. All but the Tasmanian are committted to show. I also have a group of former players committed to be their adversaries. Hope to have much of the same in 2015!
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

Cool.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I'm still waitin on the flip floppin no vote to give us a legit no reason.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

Jorel wrote:I'm still waitin on the flip floppin no vote to give us a legit no reason.


Yeah except now you have a flip flopper and another no vote, because now it's 2 votes for no.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

could be 2 flippers. Still would like to hear a legit reason aside from someone saying no besides the obvious stuff Prysus listed.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by mumah »

zyanitevp wrote:Besides, I owe Mumah alcohol, and I woulr prefer to give it to him without Kevin standing there. Plus, the pc who he drew in the link below is a big fan- sure he would love to meet him. ( not that I myself am not a big fan, I just don't want the Red Wing disease)


Kev does know I'm of legal drinking age. Just FYI. And don't come to DETROIT and doggin' on the Wings. There's a reason our murder rate is so high.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

Pretty sure sports has little effect on the Murder rates in Detroit. Robocop on the other hand would have a massive effect on Murdering rates, but the crime rates would go down.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by TagsPB »

I will again say why I voted no.....conference rooms cost a lot of money to get.......and many smaller hotels don't like having staff on over night (extra extra cost) so this means that someone has to foot the bill for a room(s) used at very odd hours - midnight till 9am is off hours for hotels.

We should be better to see about local food establishments that are open over night and would be willing to allow people to game there - would most like have a charge but would be much cheaper AND have the benefit of on site food.


But hey what do I know ----- only been involved in one of North America's largest non-profit conventions for 17 years now.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I don't see myself finding too many random gamers at Dennys after midnight. If there is no conference room, then people won't congregate elsewhere, it just won't happen. They will game with their friends or go to bed.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Jorel »

I also would be willing to bet that the people using the conference rooms would be willing to pay or split those costs for the use. They never mentioned it being overly expensive before and even had 2 rooms for people at the last 2 events in 2010 and 2012...but what do I know. I'd rather pay more for better accommodations.
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Re: Conference Room at the Hotel for Palladium Open House 20

Unread post by Razzinold »

Jorel wrote:I don't see myself finding too many random gamers at Dennys after midnight. If there is no conference room, then people won't congregate elsewhere, it just won't happen. They will game with their friends or go to bed.


Exactly. I know I personally wouldn't drive to a restaurant to hang out and game, especially if I had to pay the restaurant to do so.

Sure a conference room cots money, but that's the price of doing business. Palladium either absorbs the extra cost or passes it on to everyone and bumps the ticket price up a little.
But what do I know, I've only run the logistics and production department for the same dyehouse for 20 years :P

Seriously though, that would be like asking Palladium to give us books for free at the open house because we already put out the cost of buying the tickets, travel expenses and booking a hotel room.
Offering the "free" (like I said they either absorb the cost or pass it onto us via ticket price) use of a conference room is an incentive for people to buy tickets and attend. It's like someone offering you free shipping, but they just add that cost into the price and spread it out over the entire year so the customers don't notice.
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