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Which areas should Palladium I.P.s expand into ?
Poll ended at Thu May 19, 2011 5:54 pm
Videogames 19%  19%  [ 178 ]
Facebook/iPhone/Flash Games (think Angry Birds and Farmville) 5%  5%  [ 49 ]
MMOGs 9%  9%  [ 88 ]
TCGs (Trading Card Games) 1%  1%  [ 9 ]
Board Games 5%  5%  [ 51 ]
Miniature Games 4%  4%  [ 41 ]
Novels (fiction) 14%  14%  [ 133 ]
Comic Books (printed) 10%  10%  [ 95 ]
Digital Comic Books 2%  2%  [ 16 ]
Web Comics 5%  5%  [ 44 ]
E-Books 6%  6%  [ 56 ]
PDFs of existing and new books 16%  16%  [ 155 ]
Other 5%  5%  [ 46 ]
Total votes : 961
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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:51 am
  

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Palladin

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Ninjabunny wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Ninjabunny wrote:
PAlly did this once didn't they, Manhunter was a product of it, I love that book.



One of my top ten books from Palladium.

I think the company that did manhunter went under but that book was awesome. I hope pally looks into letting some small guys do something like Sureshot brought up.



They did and I missed an opportunity to get the original Manhunter game and its sourcebook :(

I can't recall the name of the other books they did but I had always heard good about those books.

I acquired the other Myrmidon Manhunter RPG, and the sourcebook, though I have never read through them, yet.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:24 am
  

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This hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there...

Personally I'd be willing to pay more for books with higher production value (e.g. color artwork, hardcover main book and major supplements, interesting page layout, use of good charts/tables, more attractive maps, etc.), even if it meant books would be released at a slower rater compared to if the same books were done in the current style. The D20 Modern series and the current Shadowrun in particular come to mind as well done. However, I fully expect I'm in the minority on this point, so it's no big deal.

And even saying that, I wouldn't want it to come at the cost of being a well-developed book full of solid and complete content. Margaret Weiss Productions' books for Serenity and Battlestar Galactica are good examples of coming so close and being so full of promise, but falling somewhat short of being solid and/or complete. I am told though if you take those two games and mash them together they kind of fill in the rules gaps for one another. However, I'm very very leery of buying any more of MWP's titles based on my experience with those two. (Not, mind you, that playing Serenity wasn't a hoot -- but that was due to an excellent gaming group and in spite of the rules problems.)


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:42 am
  

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Cyrano de Maniac wrote:
This hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there...

Personally I'd be willing to pay more for books with higher production value (e.g. color artwork, hardcover main book and major supplements, interesting page layout, use of good charts/tables, more attractive maps, etc.), even if it meant books would be released at a slower rater compared to if the same books were done in the current style. The D20 Modern series and the current Shadowrun in particular come to mind as well done. However, I fully expect I'm in the minority on this point, so it's no big deal.


I'd love to see them offer a hard cover option of Main books, I do like Black and white art work though. I will say adding some Color Art into Main Books would be a nice additive.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:20 am
  

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Cyrano de Maniac wrote:
This hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there...

Personally I'd be willing to pay more for books with higher production value (e.g. color artwork, hardcover main book and major supplements, interesting page layout, use of good charts/tables, more attractive maps, etc.), even if it meant books would be released at a slower rater compared to if the same books were done in the current style. The D20 Modern series and the current Shadowrun in particular come to mind as well done. However, I fully expect I'm in the minority on this point, so it's no big deal.

And even saying that, I wouldn't want it to come at the cost of being a well-developed book full of solid and complete content. Margaret Weiss Productions' books for Serenity and Battlestar Galactica are good examples of coming so close and being so full of promise, but falling somewhat short of being solid and/or complete. I am told though if you take those two games and mash them together they kind of fill in the rules gaps for one another. However, I'm very very leery of buying any more of MWP's titles based on my experience with those two. (Not, mind you, that playing Serenity wasn't a hoot -- but that was due to an excellent gaming group and in spite of the rules problems.)


I have mentioned this, but I guess your way is more concise than my way of saying "Make the books not look like Word 97 Documents"

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:00 am
  

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Knight

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Ninjabunny wrote:
PAlly did this once didn't they, Manhunter was a product of it, I love that book.


With C7 you have the big company with smaller companies within it. C7 taking care of the production costs an storage and distribution while the smaller company like Arc Dream work on the books. So far I have yet to see any companies that are partnered with them complain. So why not have PB join. It's not like they would lose their IPs and they would save moeny too.

As for better production values we as PB fans have been pretty spolied with the low cost of PB products. that unfortunstaly comes at a price of their books really not looking very good compared to other rpg companies. Were a very visual species and the look of a product matters imo. I wpuld love to see full color and hardback at least fro core books. I'm perfectly willing to buy B&W softcovers if they do them right.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:33 pm
  

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A RPG along the lines of mass effect or a shooter like gears of war would nice.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:12 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am
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A video game like Battlefield 1942 (or the more current versions), but set in the Siege of Tolkeen would be cool, shooting, driving vehicles, different roles, etc. That would be great!

CS side, engineer, medic, heavy weapons, etc
Tolkeen side- Line Walker, Merc, Borg, dragon, etc.

I would buy that in a second.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 2:46 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:35 am
Posts: 8641
Location: somewhere between Tolkeen and Chi-Town
Comment: I'm a Derrik, Derriks don't run.
If they do any type of game, it better be 3rd person. I hate FPS games, I prefer something to focus on in the foreground. More like Battlefront, less like Doom.

_________________
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"The Devil's among us!
Stay back boy!...This calls for Divine Intervention!
I kick arse for the Lord!"
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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 7:14 pm
  

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vsper wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
The 3 that never played it because they were told it sucks are the ones that bother me the most...
They formed an opinion based on nothing more than hear say evidence.
One reason I have a hard time with people on other BBS's saying a system is crap...
Some of those who complain (often the most vocal) have never even looked at the system in question.

I did make it a point to try and get the 10 Pally players together.
Dunno how well that worked out...(I have to drive 60 miles one way to get to the shop so my ability to be there is limited).

Not Surprised, Ask someone about Rolemaster, or Villains and Vigilantes. When a game gets older it gets a reputation, sometimes fairly sometimes not. PB can either get all of us to buy 3 of everything they make ( I love them but not that much), or get a bunch of new people who are not fans or may never heard of it talking about it. IF you can even get those who grumble about it to take a fresh look all the better. The problem is people aren't going to take a fresh look if it is just the same stuff as before.

Don't just dismiss their complaints. I have a group of about 60 gamers I hang around who are in age 18 - 45. We have a huge gaming community. I know all of their gaming habits. The couple who like PB games are rabid, they not only don't mind the rules but love them because they know how to munchkin them. I have a half a dozen people in that group who likes Rifts but find the rules "wonky". One has converted Rifts to Gurps because the system is more flexible and consistent. There are a few who just get depressed when they see te pile of books and are told, oh I think that may be in New West, or Phase world, or Rifter28. I have a couple that say they don't like it but don't know why.... I don't like pepsi and its hard for me to say why, so I guess that's fair. There is a fair number that don't want too try because GM's and players they trust said they do not like it. Everyone I game with has heard about PB games. Most of them have had many years to form their opinions.

Gonna be a tough changing peoples opinions, may take serious changes along with a lot of PR
vsper


I always find it a bit odd when I hear complaints about the Palladium system rules from folks on other forums. To me, the Palladium rules are completely intuitive, are easy to follow, and make logical sense. On the otherhand, I've recently tried getting into D&D 3.5, simply because I moved to a new city, and can't find anyone to play Palladium system games with, and I can't make heads or tails of the D&D rules. Perhaps it's because I grew-up playing the Palladium system, and it's all I played for 20+ years, but compared to D&D's system, I find Palladium vastly superior.

The one thing that I feel D&D does better is the 'campaign settings' format, with the core rules separated out, so that they can be applied to any 'universe' players wish to use. The Palladium OCCs and RCCs are intimately tied to the game worlds that designers create, and it requires a bit of work to divorce the core concepts from the game world if a player group wishes to use a different game world or create their own. Don't get me wrong, I love the Palladium world, the After the Bomb settings, and the Aliens Unlimited, but sometimes a change of scenery is nice, so to speak. Moving to a campaign settings format would actually allow Palladium to expand their intellectual properties, because instead of just sticking to a single fantasy environment for the PFRPG, or a single universe for Aliens Unlimited, multiple game universes, each with their own slant, could be sold, as well as the benefit of attracting players who create and play their own world and story. Switching to this format would also answer the complaint about rules needing to be consolidated and collected, instead of sprinkled throughout several books in no particular order.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:33 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 4:29 pm
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RudieCantFail wrote:
vsper wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
The 3 that never played it because they were told it sucks are the ones that bother me the most...
They formed an opinion based on nothing more than hear say evidence.
One reason I have a hard time with people on other BBS's saying a system is crap...
Some of those who complain (often the most vocal) have never even looked at the system in question.

I did make it a point to try and get the 10 Pally players together.
Dunno how well that worked out...(I have to drive 60 miles one way to get to the shop so my ability to be there is limited).

Not Surprised, Ask someone about Rolemaster, or Villains and Vigilantes. When a game gets older it gets a reputation, sometimes fairly sometimes not. PB can either get all of us to buy 3 of everything they make ( I love them but not that much), or get a bunch of new people who are not fans or may never heard of it talking about it. IF you can even get those who grumble about it to take a fresh look all the better. The problem is people aren't going to take a fresh look if it is just the same stuff as before.

Don't just dismiss their complaints. I have a group of about 60 gamers I hang around who are in age 18 - 45. We have a huge gaming community. I know all of their gaming habits. The couple who like PB games are rabid, they not only don't mind the rules but love them because they know how to munchkin them. I have a half a dozen people in that group who likes Rifts but find the rules "wonky". One has converted Rifts to Gurps because the system is more flexible and consistent. There are a few who just get depressed when they see te pile of books and are told, oh I think that may be in New West, or Phase world, or Rifter28. I have a couple that say they don't like it but don't know why.... I don't like pepsi and its hard for me to say why, so I guess that's fair. There is a fair number that don't want too try because GM's and players they trust said they do not like it. Everyone I game with has heard about PB games. Most of them have had many years to form their opinions.

Gonna be a tough changing peoples opinions, may take serious changes along with a lot of PR
vsper


I always find it a bit odd when I hear complaints about the Palladium system rules from folks on other forums. To me, the Palladium rules are completely intuitive, are easy to follow, and make logical sense. On the otherhand, I've recently tried getting into D&D 3.5, simply because I moved to a new city, and can't find anyone to play Palladium system games with, and I can't make heads or tails of the D&D rules. Perhaps it's because I grew-up playing the Palladium system, and it's all I played for 20+ years, but compared to D&D's system, I find Palladium vastly superior.

The one thing that I feel D&D does better is the 'campaign settings' format, with the core rules separated out, so that they can be applied to any 'universe' players wish to use. The Palladium OCCs and RCCs are intimately tied to the game worlds that designers create, and it requires a bit of work to divorce the core concepts from the game world if a player group wishes to use a different game world or create their own. Don't get me wrong, I love the Palladium world, the After the Bomb settings, and the Aliens Unlimited, but sometimes a change of scenery is nice, so to speak. Moving to a campaign settings format would actually allow Palladium to expand their intellectual properties, because instead of just sticking to a single fantasy environment for the PFRPG, or a single universe for Aliens Unlimited, multiple game universes, each with their own slant, could be sold, as well as the benefit of attracting players who create and play their own world and story. Switching to this format would also answer the complaint about rules needing to be consolidated and collected, instead of sprinkled throughout several books in no particular order.



You can take OCC's & RCC's from one Pally game line and put them in another, it's fairly easy so I'm not sure what you mean by them being intimately tied to the game worlds. There are tons of different universes, as well as the ability to make your own. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying but I have never came across the problems you are talking about.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:54 am
  

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Kalidor wrote:
Cyrano de Maniac wrote:
This hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there...

Personally I'd be willing to pay more for books with higher production value (e.g. color artwork, hardcover main book and major supplements, interesting page layout, use of good charts/tables, more attractive maps, etc.), even if it meant books would be released at a slower rater compared to if the same books were done in the current style. The D20 Modern series and the current Shadowrun in particular come to mind as well done. However, I fully expect I'm in the minority on this point, so it's no big deal.

And even saying that, I wouldn't want it to come at the cost of being a well-developed book full of solid and complete content. Margaret Weiss Productions' books for Serenity and Battlestar Galactica are good examples of coming so close and being so full of promise, but falling somewhat short of being solid and/or complete. I am told though if you take those two games and mash them together they kind of fill in the rules gaps for one another. However, I'm very very leery of buying any more of MWP's titles based on my experience with those two. (Not, mind you, that playing Serenity wasn't a hoot -- but that was due to an excellent gaming group and in spite of the rules problems.)


I have mentioned this, but I guess your way is more concise than my way of saying "Make the books not look like Word 97 Documents"


9 words is way concise

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:58 am
  

Adventurer

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Comment: fellow femanons represent!
Jorel wrote:
If they do any type of game, it better be 3rd person. I hate FPS games, I prefer something to focus on in the foreground. More like Battlefront, less like Doom.


totes agreement. they shoud make the videogame that I want & not the game thatll get the most players or make the most money!

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 1:15 am
  

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OLD ONE

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Shawn Merrow wrote:
AlexM wrote:
Last, there are print comics. Another option we're looking into. There are a few ways we can go about doing this, and details are still being discussed in our weekly meetings.



Alex Marciniszyn


Is there anything that can be done with the old Mechanoids comics?

Could be done as part of the release of the Mechanoids RPG.
If not the "new" version, perhaps a nostalgic print of the original series.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:10 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:30 am
Posts: 18
I voted for pdfs, e-books, and other. Other being a revised system.

Palladium has probably the best settings and back stories out there especially with Rifts, but the system is outdated, very inconsistent, and subjective in many areas. I'm the kind of player that enjoys systems like Savage Worlds, Unisystem, the old ICON system from LUG, and even the Pathfinder system to a degree. From what I'm reading I'm not alone in my dislike of Palladium's current system. A streamlined system would do wonders for this game and that gets my vote as the most important thing that should be worked on.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:52 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
RudieCantFail wrote:
vsper wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
The 3 that never played it because they were told it sucks are the ones that bother me the most...
They formed an opinion based on nothing more than hear say evidence.
One reason I have a hard time with people on other BBS's saying a system is crap...
Some of those who complain (often the most vocal) have never even looked at the system in question.

I did make it a point to try and get the 10 Pally players together.
Dunno how well that worked out...(I have to drive 60 miles one way to get to the shop so my ability to be there is limited).

Not Surprised, Ask someone about Rolemaster, or Villains and Vigilantes. When a game gets older it gets a reputation, sometimes fairly sometimes not. PB can either get all of us to buy 3 of everything they make ( I love them but not that much), or get a bunch of new people who are not fans or may never heard of it talking about it. IF you can even get those who grumble about it to take a fresh look all the better. The problem is people aren't going to take a fresh look if it is just the same stuff as before.

Don't just dismiss their complaints. I have a group of about 60 gamers I hang around who are in age 18 - 45. We have a huge gaming community. I know all of their gaming habits. The couple who like PB games are rabid, they not only don't mind the rules but love them because they know how to munchkin them. I have a half a dozen people in that group who likes Rifts but find the rules "wonky". One has converted Rifts to Gurps because the system is more flexible and consistent. There are a few who just get depressed when they see te pile of books and are told, oh I think that may be in New West, or Phase world, or Rifter28. I have a couple that say they don't like it but don't know why.... I don't like pepsi and its hard for me to say why, so I guess that's fair. There is a fair number that don't want too try because GM's and players they trust said they do not like it. Everyone I game with has heard about PB games. Most of them have had many years to form their opinions.

Gonna be a tough changing peoples opinions, may take serious changes along with a lot of PR
vsper


I always find it a bit odd when I hear complaints about the Palladium system rules from folks on other forums. To me, the Palladium rules are completely intuitive, are easy to follow, and make logical sense. On the otherhand, I've recently tried getting into D&D 3.5, simply because I moved to a new city, and can't find anyone to play Palladium system games with, and I can't make heads or tails of the D&D rules. Perhaps it's because I grew-up playing the Palladium system, and it's all I played for 20+ years, but compared to D&D's system, I find Palladium vastly superior.

The one thing that I feel D&D does better is the 'campaign settings' format, with the core rules separated out, so that they can be applied to any 'universe' players wish to use. The Palladium OCCs and RCCs are intimately tied to the game worlds that designers create, and it requires a bit of work to divorce the core concepts from the game world if a player group wishes to use a different game world or create their own. Don't get me wrong, I love the Palladium world, the After the Bomb settings, and the Aliens Unlimited, but sometimes a change of scenery is nice, so to speak. Moving to a campaign settings format would actually allow Palladium to expand their intellectual properties, because instead of just sticking to a single fantasy environment for the PFRPG, or a single universe for Aliens Unlimited, multiple game universes, each with their own slant, could be sold, as well as the benefit of attracting players who create and play their own world and story. Switching to this format would also answer the complaint about rules needing to be consolidated and collected, instead of sprinkled throughout several books in no particular order.




First, we are considering all rules suggestions. Second, through e-mails, direct interaction in person and through retailers, distributors and other sources, one thing is clear: the vast majority of our customers like the rules as is, followed by those who add minor tweaks, followed by those who house rule, followed by those who adapt the game to their favorite system. Once again, everything that's been written here about rules is being considered.

Because of lack of time or interest, many of our fans don't post here and some don't visit the forums unless it is to get the latest news. They buy our books and play. I've been contacted by a small number of people who buy our books just because they enjoy reading them.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:58 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 4483
... and yet a lot of players do frequent the internet, just not THESE forums.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:05 pm
  

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Quote:
the vast majority of our customers like the rules as is


Sir, with all due respect, you've posted this comment, or comments similar to this in response to people asking for the rules to be changed -- and you miss the point every time.

Every customer you have is a percentage of a percentage of the overall market share. And even if ALL your customers agreed the rules were fine and nothing needed to be changed, your customer base continues to bleed dry each and every year. It is no longer about pleasing those who bought their books 20 years ago and are hanging on no matter what.

If you fail to see that, as your statement seems to indicate, your customer base will never grow. Those who are loyal and like the rules as is will not abandon the company at this stage. They are here for the long haul, and even if you do find that those people who already own the books step away -- they've made it clear that they aren't going to play games from other companies, but they will do what they've always done and play the games from you *they already own*.

You are not gaining new customers or a market share with this philosophy. This isn't conjecture, it's visible to anyone who sees it. And frankly, your citations of 'emails and phone calls' are pretty subjective at best.

I'll be the first to admit I don't understand why you guys do what you do - from a business standpoint it makes no sense.

Don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative if you're truly considering all options... in the end, it just doesn't seem like that's what you're doing but rather saying that's what you're doing so that a year from now, two years from now or what have you when nothing changes you can say "Well our phone call and email research shows that our current customers like what we make, so we decided against the many things that were talked about and considered" knowing full well it was dismissed day one.

Of course your current customers like what they buy -- that's why they are current customers. It's the 10 to 1 percentage of potential customers, past or future, that you continue to ignore that's going to cause this company to not be able to sustain itself in the 21st century.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:40 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: This is the Age of Steel. We are humanity 2.0.
I am starting to wonder if all they plan to do is give the illusion of wanting to change how things are done instead of actually implementing any change. If your starting a thread like this and then telling us in no uncertain terms that the rules are something you do not plan to change becuase the current shrinking fanbase are okay with them seems like a waste of time and effort. To me that is wrong because your doing a disservice to the fanbase and wasting our time. In the end if this is all a smokescreen to buy yourselves more time in hopes that the whole revising the system goes away it will backfire. Imo you will not only lose fans you will never be able to do something similar again because you will have lost all credability.

If Kevin and PB do not want to change the rules I would be unhappy yet understand that. The thing is either go all the way with it or remove that option completely. Your playing a dangerous game here and it will bite you in your collective behinds. Maybe I and others are misreading what is being said on rules revisions yet as this thread progress I see more and more that PB is not interested in doing that. Going thorugh various other forms of media. Its not going to stop your loss of fans completely. It is a good step but not enough to get a large amount of fans needed to keep the company afloat.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:53 pm
  

Adventurer

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 3:00 pm
Posts: 629
Kalidor wrote:
Quote:
the vast majority of our customers like the rules as is


Sir, with all due respect, you've posted this comment, or comments similar to this in response to people asking for the rules to be changed -- and you miss the point every time.

Every customer you have is a percentage of a percentage of the overall market share. And even if ALL your customers agreed the rules were fine and nothing needed to be changed, your customer base continues to bleed dry each and every year. It is no longer about pleasing those who bought their books 20 years ago and are hanging on no matter what.

If you fail to see that, as your statement seems to indicate, your customer base will never grow. Those who are loyal and like the rules as is will not abandon the company at this stage. They are here for the long haul, and even if you do find that those people who already own the books step away -- they've made it clear that they aren't going to play games from other companies, but they will do what they've always done and play the games from you *they already own*.

You are not gaining new customers or a market share with this philosophy. This isn't conjecture, it's visible to anyone who sees it. And frankly, your citations of 'emails and phone calls' are pretty subjective at best.

I'll be the first to admit I don't understand why you guys do what you do - from a business standpoint it makes no sense.

Don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative if you're truly considering all options... in the end, it just doesn't seem like that's what you're doing but rather saying that's what you're doing so that a year from now, two years from now or what have you when nothing changes you can say "Well our phone call and email research shows that our current customers like what we make, so we decided against the many things that were talked about and considered" knowing full well it was dismissed day one.

Of course your current customers like what they buy -- that's why they are current customers. It's the 10 to 1 percentage of potential customers, past or future, that you continue to ignore that's going to cause this company to not be able to sustain itself in the 21st century.


I really wish people chanting "change rules" would quit acting like they have statistical data hidden away like they know Palladium would suddenly be king of RPGs if they changed their rules like a politician claiming to have a secret list of who all the communists in America are during the Cold War.

I do believe also that he said "we take feedback about rules." Feedback about rules isn't simply "change the system," it's talking about rules and how you feel something specific could be better as opposed to just shotgunning the entire system. As I've said before in this thread, I doubt the guy that made Channeling simply sat around saying "Change the rules, I want a 2.0 to fix the stuff I don't like." And I think it's also key that if you don't say what you do want changed instead of just chanting for change, there is no guarantee you'll get any of the changes your want.

I would worry about any major changes as is right now, since as it stands Palladium is a very easy system to house rule without slamming your head against 5 other rules. I do think the roughest part of Palladium is being a GM, but that's partially because of hour expansive some of the systems are. If I GMed a game of Splicers I could get away with having 2 or 3 books out, RIFTS I'd likely need 5 to 10 at least with me. A big book of monsters and antagonists would probably really help out a GM.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:59 pm
  

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Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:01 am
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AlexM wrote:
First, we are considering all rules suggestions. Second, through e-mails, direct interaction in person and through retailers, distributors and other sources, one thing is clear: the vast majority of our customers like the rules as is, followed by those who add minor tweaks, followed by those who house rule, followed by those who adapt the game to their favorite system. Once again, everything that's been written here about rules is being considered.

Because of lack of time or interest, many of our fans don't post here and some don't visit the forums unless it is to get the latest news. They buy our books and play. I've been contacted by a small number of people who buy our books just because they enjoy reading them.

Alex Marciniszyn



The vast majority of your customers like the rules as is. The ones you never hear about are the legions of former players that have quit buying the books altogether.

Most people who have quit playing, quit because the rules are old, or clunky, or have rules issues that are never addressed.

The goal is to improve awareness of Palladium Books, to increase sales and keep sales sustained through the use of alternate mediums (video games, pdf, etc).
The core business is still the tabletop RPGs.

If all this work for raising awareness happens, people check out the RPG, but don't like the rules, then it's all for not.

It really is time for a total top down retooling of the system. It's not user friendly, there are still tons of rule problems for everything from character creation to combat, there is no software support, not playtesting and the list goes on.

There is a cool system in there, many very neat things, they just need to be worked out and integrated in a more uniform manner.

If the system rewrite were to happen, i would hope that it would be an open playtest with a group of designers who get the game and what needs to be fixed.
I would be extremely happy to help with this process.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:41 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
We are aware of former players. The overreaction was expected. Kevin does indeed want to implement whatever's needed.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:45 pm
  

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Comment: Wayne dropped a parking stop on me at the '10 POH - I'm blackmailing him into accepting Rifter submissions for it!
I'm positive that the issue of rules/sytem revamp/rewrite is not a smoke screen. Kevin is not a jerk, or Alex for that matter. They are good people who care about the fans.
I'm pretty sure that the main reason Alex posted this is because a large part of this thread has become focused on changing the system. This really is natural, seeing as how "keep the system the same" is just one option, out-weighed by large number of other positions people can take, I.e. - "change it a little," "change it a lot", "change it all", better organize it with a few changes," etc.
I think Alex is just posting this on here because a lot of people seem to be broadcasting that they feel a big change is imminent, and it'll be the one they're lobbyibg for. A big part of any company's success is managing the expectations of their customers. We see all the time companies doing this wrong, getting people's expectations too high then there is a huge let down when the new product is unveiled and world-change does not immediately happen (can anyone say Segway?).
I think Alex just wants to put the brakes on a bit here so that people don't get too excited. I really do think that some change and streamlining is coming, but it I don't think it will be as fast or as drastic as a lot of people on here might believe.

_________________
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Calm, reasoned discourse is the best way to change minds; too bad all the calm & reason in the world can't open a willfully closed mind.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am a die-hard fan of Palladium Books and a permanent part of their cheering section!


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:08 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm
Posts: 4483
Edit: nah, never mind


Last edited by janitor on Mon May 02, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:19 pm
  

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Knight

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Wow if you think that is what passes for an overreaction than I hate to see what you guys think is an actual person overreacting.

Im not expecting change overnight. PB just does not have the resoruces to do so. It just seems like on one hand they want to streamline the rules and on the other their telling me at the same time not to expect it because were told that fans like it as it is. They just seem to contradict each other. If you want to show the gaming community your serious start a thread on another forum. Then your results will be much different I think. If all your going to do is ask for feedback while remaining safe and sound here well your not going to see a global picture. Of course most fans on this site do not want to see anything really new. Its the site of the company. Go to Wotc or any other rpg site and you will get the exact same thing. As I said its like playing with a deck that has been stacked in your favor. And its going to take more than an increased internet presecene to increase sales and profits. The system will always be the main stumbling to recovery.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:22 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: Working on getting Splicers more support!!!
Comment: THE SPLICE MUST FLOW!!!
Citizen Lazlo wrote:
Questioning things in a very polite or at least not hostile/rude way is "Overreaction"?

The Dictionary wrote:
1) to react or respond more strongly than is necessary or appropriate 2)to react excessively to something

Alex never said people were being hostile or rude, Josh. Reacting on emotion often leads to overreaction. Alex used the word properly.

I for one would love to see a modified rules set based on the existing rules, as would many fans. Palladium is aware.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:23 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:18 pm
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Edit: forget it


Last edited by janitor on Mon May 02, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 4:31 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
Sureshot wrote:
Wow if you think that is what passes for an overreaction than I hate to see what you guys think is an actual person overreacting.

Im not expecting change overnight. PB just does not have the resoruces to do so. It just seems like on one hand they want to streamline the rules and on the other their telling me at the same time not to expect it because were told that fans like it as it is. They just seem to contradict each other. If you want to show the gaming community your serious start a thread on another forum. Then your results will be much different I think. If all your going to do is ask for feedback while remaining safe and sound here well your not going to see a global picture. Of course most fans on this site do not want to see anything really new. Its the site of the company. Go to Wotc or any other rpg site and you will get the exact same thing. As I said its like playing with a deck that has been stacked in your favor. And its going to take more than an increased internet presecene to increase sales and profits. The system will always be the main stumbling to recovery.





Your comments lack perspective. I told everyone here how things are regarding our games. I never wrote not to expect any changes. I go to other company web sites.





Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:02 pm
  

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I think Alex M has been extremely fair.

This thread was originally about expanding the PB IPs into new non-RPG areas and of course the "fix the system" came up and Alex has been very open to that discussion, but we 24 cabalists must also be open to Alex's statements regarding the popularity of the PB system.

I believe Alex when he says the majority of current customers are happy with the system.

Current customers pay the bills whereas potential customers are just conjecture. We cabalists can firmly and devoutly believe that modifying the system would bring more customers, but its just our belief and that's not rooted in any definite facts. It's just our opinion. And Alex has been very cool to listen to our opinions.

But as I said before, these Defenders of the Faith need to express their love of PB's system "as is" in other RPG forums, game stores and conventions, not just on this website where the worst "haterz" would be considered devoted fans by the rest of the RPG community. Defenders must step up and evangelize the system the same way as fans of GURPs, Hero, D20 and Savage World do regarding their favorite systems.

BTW, double kudos to Alex for his coolness. If my home burnt down, I doubt I'd regain my cool for a long time and I'd probably be biting off heads for a couple years. So let's keep that in mind too.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:23 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Comment: For the glory of Zeon and Zerebus, Sieg Zeon!

2D6 Palladium Forum History Geek Points
Spinachcat wrote:
But as I said before, these Defenders of the Faith need to express their love of PB's system "as is" in other RPG forums, game stores and conventions, not just on this website where the worst "haterz" would be considered devoted fans by the rest of the RPG community. Defenders must step up and evangelize the system the same way as fans of GURPs, Hero, D20 and Savage World do regarding their favorite systems.


Getting insulted for just saying you like Palladium Books or your view point being dismissed as fanboy koolaid drinking gets old after awhile and you just stop bothering with some of those boards. All that tilting at windmills in the past was just making me mad all the time, so I gave up on it. I used to check at least four to five gaming message boards a day not counting news sites, newsgroups and mailing lists but now just this one and "theRPGSite" on a daily bases.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:38 pm
  

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AlexM wrote:
We are aware of former players. The overreaction was expected. Kevin does indeed want to implement whatever's needed.




Alex Marciniszyn



That's a hostile tone. I wasn't an over reaction, it was a reaction. Why be dismissive to me about it? This is the behavior I'm citing. And frankly, the worst part is -- *I'm* a customer, not some random internet butthole who's blowing smoke,but someone who owns thousands of dollars worth of printed PB material. My Rifts book? Second Printing, 1991 -- I've been here since the early days. My first RPG ever was TMNT and it snowballed from there.

It irritates me that you couldn't even be bothered to address me directly, but rather to simply dismiss my post as an 'over reaction' as though I don't even warrant the respect to be acknowledged.

I give up.

_________________
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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:47 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
I guess perspective is needed. When I read statements about something 'we never hear about,' my first thought is, "How do you know that?"

Let's look at the wide variety of reasons people cut back on role-playing games in general:

1) Got married, no time.
2) Just had kids, no time.
3) Moved and I can't find players in my area.
4) If I could put a group together I'd play. As it is, I'm playing computer games now.
5) Been out of work so I had to cut back.

The previous list is not exhaustive but serves as an example of the things we know about.


Then the reasons people start playing again:

1) The kids are grown so I have the time now.
2) Forgot how much fun they were and I got together with some old friends and we're playing again.
3) My kids are going to be role-players, like the father who called me last week to tell me his 13 year old boy loves Rifts.
4) Computer games just can't capture the social aspect of pen & paper games.

Again, not an exhaustive list.


Sales here are checked daily and compared to sales from years past. The bills have to be paid regularly. My contact at our top distributor is also a role-player. We discuss trends in the industry on a regular basis.

I appreciate the input.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:55 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
Kalidor wrote:
AlexM wrote:
We are aware of former players. The overreaction was expected. Kevin does indeed want to implement whatever's needed.




Alex Marciniszyn



That's a hostile tone. I wasn't an over reaction, it was a reaction. Why be dismissive to me about it? This is the behavior I'm citing. And frankly, the worst part is -- *I'm* a customer, not some random internet butthole who's blowing smoke,but someone who owns thousands of dollars worth of printed PB material. My Rifts book? Second Printing, 1991 -- I've been here since the early days. My first RPG ever was TMNT and it snowballed from there.

It irritates me that you couldn't even be bothered to address me directly, but rather to simply dismiss my post as an 'over reaction' as though I don't even warrant the respect to be acknowledged.

I give up.




I apologize. You must understand that when I read definitive statements that are not based on hard facts, I view such statements as beliefs. I understand some people think that this or that is going on and they just don't know. I would ask you to consider that most of our competitors are gone.

Once again, I was not trying to be dismissive toward you. My intention was to point out that we have heard all kinds of things on the internet that are not based on solid, factual information. I know you mean well, otherwise you would not own so many of our books or even post here. I also know that many others are reading what I write and I want to keep my responses more general so that everybody gets factual information.

Bills are coming in daily and they get paid. I'm thinking that the biggest mystery is how we've managed to stay in business for 30 years.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 6:58 pm
  

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Comment: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt
Now, let's get this thread back on its rails.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:07 pm
  

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Comment: J.V. Adams
AlexM wrote:
...
3) My kids are going to be role-players, like the father who called me last week to tell me his 13 year old boy loves Rifts.


Just ran a game of Rifts Saturday night for my two 13-year old sons, and two of their friends. They didn't get much done, but laughed a lot. They want to play again. Win!

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:15 pm
  

Wanderer

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:23 pm
Posts: 87
Location: Binghamton NY
Hi Alex
For those of us who have put concrete suggestions to paper (or more like likely disk), is there a place you would like to see this? That might help keep this thread more on track. You can take or leave our suggestions as you wish.
Thank you for not getting too frustrated.
vsper


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:21 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
You can send me a PM. That'll work.




Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:35 pm
  

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I'd like to see some official maps. There are a few people who don't want certain areas defined, but I think most people do. At this point there could be a series of different maps for the current time-line. I for one would like more details and specifics, not less. Compiled book (Atlas) of maps that are more general as well as ones that are region specific.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:49 pm
  

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Jorel wrote:
I'd like to see some official maps. There are a few people who don't want certain areas defined, but I think most people do. At this point there could be a series of different maps for the current time-line. I for one would like more details and specifics, not less. Compiled book (Atlas) of maps that are more general as well as ones that are region specific.

I'd by a atlas of Rifts and Palladium World.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:02 pm
  

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AlexM wrote:
First, we are considering all rules suggestions. Second, through e-mails, direct interaction in person and through retailers, distributors and other sources, one thing is clear: the vast majority of our customers like the rules as is, followed by those who add minor tweaks, followed by those who house rule, followed by those who adapt the game to their favorite system. Once again, everything that's been written here about rules is being considered.

Because of lack of time or interest, many of our fans don't post here and some don't visit the forums unless it is to get the latest news. They buy our books and play. I've been contacted by a small number of people who buy our books just because they enjoy reading them.




Alex Marciniszyn


Fair enough. I'm one of those fans that never posted on here before, and I never visited the forum here before this past week either. When I saw that the conversation had turned from other media to how Palladium could attract new customers for their pen-and-paper games I thought I'd share some of the things that I've heard from players of other games as I tried to find a playing group. If your data suggests otherwise, it's likely more accurate; mine is purely annecdotal.

As I said, I find the basic Palladium system to be superior, and far more intuitive than other game systems. I try to get other people 'converted' to Palladium because I'd rather be playing the Palladium system rules that I know backwards-and-forwards after more than 20 years of playing and GMing Palladium system games almost exclusively.

In collecting and consolidating the rule system, I'm not suggesting any sort of fundamental changes to the rules. What I am suggesting, is merely a change in the presentation of the game system information to make it more accessible to prospective customers who do not have an experienced Palladium gamer, who knows by heart which sections of which books to look in, to guide them through the system.



If Palladium is trying to attract new gamers to their system, they might want to consider a new line of RPGs, based off of something trendy in youth culture now-a-days. When I was a kid, what got me into RPGs (and Palladium specifically) was the TMNT line of games. I was nuts about all things TMNT when I was a kid, and it was when I was in my local comic shop, looking for Ninja Turtle comics, that I came across the TMNT and Other Strangeness sourcebook. After a few years playing that, I got into Heroes Unlimited, then Ninjas and Superspies, and then the Palladium Fantasy RPG. If it wasn't for that TMNT connection, I probably never would have gotten into RPGs at all. Try to find something out there in today's youth culture that you can latch on to, to bring in customers who've never heard of role-playing games, and pick up a book based solely on the name recognition of the thing that they like.

As far as attracting new customers among adults who already game, I think Palladium has a tough sell. The people who are aware of Palladium products don't seem to have a favorable opinion of them (at least in my experience, which as I said, is annecdotal) I think polishing up the presentation of the rule system could win a lot of converts. As for the large number of adult gamers who have never even heard of Palladium, new game lines in different genres might catch the attention of prospective customers. About six years ago I had cobbled together an Anime-esque game for my gaming group using elements of Ninjas & Superspies, Mystic China, the Palladium Fantasy RPG, and Heroes Unlimited, and set in medieval Japan and based loosely off of Anime shows like Inuyasha. I ended up getting a new gamer for our group, who was attracted to the Anime aspect of the game when she saw one of the other members of my group with some of the material I had prepared. About 12 years ago, I had cooked up a game set in the Old West, that combined elements of the Palladium Fantasy RPG, and Transdimentional TMNT (the sections on Old West firearms, and skills), and some martial arts from Ninjas & Superspies (Chinese railroad workers in the Old West). I ended up gaining a gamer who was an Old West enthusiast, but had previously only played D&D.

Those are just some examples, the point is that while you're keeping your existing, loyal customers (like me) who know and love your games, you don't seem to be winning many new customers with your existing product lines.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:07 am
  

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Knight

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I'm not sure what new things can be added to this thread that has not already been said already. I maybe wrong on that and will keep an eye on this thread to see if anything new suggestions pop up. Beyond that for the moment I have said what I wanted to say. That may change of courde. Still I hope within the next few years we see something develop from some of these suggestions. Not right away of course yet 5 years down the line I do not want to see the company still having not implemented anything. It's all good to say you want to change now it's time to show us what you can do as a company. Prove your detractors wrong.

I really think you should start threads on other rpg sites such as rpg.net and others. So what if some posters are negative on those sites. You can create a thread where you can ask only for constructive suggestions. If all you do is just stick to this forum for feedback your limiting your perspective and your feedback. Saying that your fanbase does not want change when you go out of your way to not go anywhere else but here is not going to give you any credability as a company outside of these boards and rightfully so if your not willing to go out side this site. Why would I believe you since your not doing anything but polling from your own site.

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Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

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When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


Last edited by Sureshot on Tue May 03, 2011 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:15 am
  

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I'll pipe up with another "Other" suggestion.

I'm currently looking for a good Old West system. I haven't been terribly impressed by existing systems I've read about online. The best alternative I've seen thus far is using D20 Modern plus the D20 Past supplement, but I'd be hesitant to use that as a basis for a new game because it appears D20 Modern is no longer in print.

On some other thread on this forum a month or so ago I saw someone expressing interest in a steampunk game.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:40 am
  

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Comment: Goodbye Cruel world.... Wait, I'm back.
Sureshot wrote:
I'm not sure what new things can be added to this thread that has not already been said already. I maybe wrong on that and will keep an eye on this thread to see if anything new suggestions pop up. Beyond that for the moment I have said what I wanted to say. That may change of courde. Still I hope within the next few years we see something develop from some of these suggestions. Not right away of course yet 5 years down the line I do not want to see the company still having not implemented anything. It's all good to say you want to change now it's time to show us what you can do as a company. Prove your detractors wrong.

I really think you should start threads on other rpg sites such as rpg.net and others. So what if some posters are negative on those sites. You can create a thread where you can ask only for constructive suggestions. If all you do is just stick to this forum for feedback your limiting your perspective and your feedback. Saying that your fanbase does not want change when you go out of your way to not go anywhere else but here is not going to give you any credability as a company outside of these boards and rightfully so if your not willing to go out side this site. Why would I believe you since your not doing anything but polling from your own site.

I think this is another good idea, it will show ex-fans that PB is looking toward renewing itself and stepping into other medias more seriously then in the past. If the rules issues pop up listen to them and the media branching ideals. Ignore the obvious hate and listen to what folks are saying it will take to buy new products.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:04 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12459
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Ninjabunny wrote:
Sureshot wrote:
I'm not sure what new things can be added to this thread that has not already been said already. I maybe wrong on that and will keep an eye on this thread to see if anything new suggestions pop up. Beyond that for the moment I have said what I wanted to say. That may change of courde. Still I hope within the next few years we see something develop from some of these suggestions. Not right away of course yet 5 years down the line I do not want to see the company still having not implemented anything. It's all good to say you want to change now it's time to show us what you can do as a company. Prove your detractors wrong.

I really think you should start threads on other rpg sites such as rpg.net and others. So what if some posters are negative on those sites. You can create a thread where you can ask only for constructive suggestions. If all you do is just stick to this forum for feedback your limiting your perspective and your feedback. Saying that your fanbase does not want change when you go out of your way to not go anywhere else but here is not going to give you any credability as a company outside of these boards and rightfully so if your not willing to go out side this site. Why would I believe you since your not doing anything but polling from your own site.

I think this is another good idea, it will show ex-fans that PB is looking toward renewing itself and stepping into other medias more seriously then in the past. If the rules issues pop up listen to them and the media branching ideals. Ignore the obvious hate and listen to what folks are saying it will take to buy new products.



Uh.......I can tell you right now they KNOW about this thread and Palladium's future plans at RPG.net......it isn't pretty and it sounds like a "put you money where your mouth is and THEN I MIGHT believe you"

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of hte day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, AIM - icesith1, MSN Messenger - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, ICQ - 127915633, Yahoo Messenger - demonjames666, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:31 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 5274
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: This is the Age of Steel. We are humanity 2.0.
jaymz wrote:
Uh.......I can tell you right now they KNOW about this thread and Palladium's future plans at RPG.net......it isn't pretty and it sounds like a "put you money where your mouth is and THEN I MIGHT believe you"


One does expect a company that ask for feedback to change things to well you know actually change how they do things. Right now it's not up to ex-fans to have faith in PB. It's up to PB to renew their faith in them. They should at least try and if it gets too much negativity the thread gets closed. At least they showed the community they were willing. If I were an ex-fan lurking on these boards and just looking at the company just hiding out over here does not show me they want to get more invovled with the gaming community at large. If anything all they want to do is just keep their fanabse and only their fanbase happy.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:41 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12459
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Sureshot wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Uh.......I can tell you right now they KNOW about this thread and Palladium's future plans at RPG.net......it isn't pretty and it sounds like a "put you money where your mouth is and THEN I MIGHT believe you"


One does expect a company that ask for feedback to change things to well you know actually change how they do things. Right now it's not up to ex-fans to have faith in PB. It's up to PB to renew their faith in them. They should at least try and if it gets too much negativity the thread gets closed. At least they showed the community they were willing. If I were an ex-fan lurking on these boards and just looking at the company just hiding out over here does not show me they want to get more invovled with the gaming community at large. If anything all they want to do is just keep their fanabse and only their fanbase happy.


I don't disagree but the problem is i think it is too far gone as to the animosity or ill will held by those fans by and large that it'll take a LOT more than just saying you want to do something to change and be different. They want to SEE change and things being different and that is yet to happen.

I find even myself asking "Why do I keep buying product?" after buying the last 2 years worth of books. My answer is I am not sure I can justify doing it anymore.

I see myself and others on this board (naysayers and defenders alike) making more efforts to promote Palladium product than I see palladium doing by and large and when asked why don't they do promotions or why is it we don't see/hear about PB we get told to go out and promote it ourselves. We shouldn't HAVE to is the crux of many of our problems.

I walk into my local store. I have to special order anything that Palladium produces. It takes the better part of a month for them to get it yet Pathfinder, Warhammer, D&D and various other games (Mutants and Materminds etc) are restocked in half the time. I asked why it takes so much longer and the manager of the store told be it was because his own distributor doesn't carry Palladium products in stock and has to then order it in order for the store to get it which then I finally get it. I see ads and posters on the walls for all the previously mentioned games. Nothing for Palladium.

The first and foremost thing Palladium needs to do is not make more new product (though that is up there), or video games or comics or novels. It is the need to ADVERTISE. Video games, comics, novels and all the rest is completely irrelevant if no one knows who the hell you are.

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of hte day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, AIM - icesith1, MSN Messenger - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, ICQ - 127915633, Yahoo Messenger - demonjames666, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

MIAFI :D


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:54 am
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:02 am
Posts: 643
Location: Louisville, KY
I'd be interested in reading those other feedback threads. I admit, I don't frequent the site so I wouldn't even know where to find said thread(s).


Also, thanks Alex for responding. Did you see my questions/comments about talking with Cryptic Studios?

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:19 am
  

Palladium Books® Staffer

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2112
Kalidor wrote:
I'd be interested in reading those other feedback threads. I admit, I don't frequent the site so I wouldn't even know where to find said thread(s).


Also, thanks Alex for responding. Did you see my questions/comments about talking with Cryptic Studios?




Yes, I did see your comment about Cryptic Studios. I will add them to my list.



Thanks,
Alex Marciniszyn


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:26 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:42 pm
Posts: 5274
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Comment: This is the Age of Steel. We are humanity 2.0.
jaymz wrote:
I don't disagree but the problem is i think it is too far gone as to the animosity or ill will held by those fans by and large that it'll take a LOT more than just saying you want to do something to change and be different. They want to SEE change and things being different and that is yet to happen.


Well they should at least try. In the end after five years of seeing much of the same I'm not sure if anything will change.

jaymz wrote:
I find even myself asking "Why do I keep buying product?" after buying the last 2 years worth of books. My answer is I am not sure I can justify doing it anymore.


For myself it's more a money issue and having to spend less on rpg products. Yet a small part is asking me why bother too. To be fair it's not only this company products that I have been dissapointed in but others too.

jaymz wrote:
I see myself and others on this board (naysayers and defenders alike) making more efforts to promote Palladium product than I see palladium doing by and large and when asked why don't they do promotions or why is it we don't see/hear about PB we get told to go out and promote it ourselves. We shouldn't HAVE to is the crux of many of our problems.


I know what you mean. Once I saw this thread I fully expected them to start threads on other forums. Not all other gaming forums are hostile to PB. there was the one I started on rpg.net. Another on Paizo and another on the Hero Games board I think. Not so much as I thank you for doing something they should have been doing. I have my hands full with my own job. I'm no longer going to go out of my way for this company or any other rpg company. I don't know maybe I need a small break from these boards and other rpg boards. Feeling a little disillusioned with rpgs lately.

jaymz wrote:
I walk into my local store. I have to special order anything that Palladium produces. It takes the better part of a month for them to get it yet Pathfinder, Warhammer, D&D and various other games (Mutants and Materminds etc) are restocked in half the time. I asked why it takes so much longer and the manager of the store told be it was because his own distributor doesn't carry Palladium products in stock and has to then order it in order for the store to get it which then I finally get it. I see ads and posters on the walls for all the previously mentioned games. Nothing for Palladium.


I'm spoiled in this regard because the FLGS I use has a good distriubtor who can get PB withinh a week or two. Unfortunaterly if sales at that store stay as they are the owner will have to cut back on what PNB he cares. He needs the space for more profitable rpgs. I also agree they need to step up advertising. I will never forgot seeing the Rifts poster with the Ley Line Walker at my FLGS so many years ago. I was hooked and bought the RMB.

jaymz wrote:
The first and foremost thing Palladium needs to do is not make more new product (though that is up there), or video games or comics or novels. It is the need to ADVERTISE. Video games, comics, novels and all the rest is completely irrelevant if no one knows who the hell you are.


Very much agreed and seconded. ADVERTISE and as much as possible. It does not matter what else you do if no one knows who you are.

_________________
If it's stupid and it works. It's not stupid

Palladium can't be given a free pass for criticism because people have a lot of emotion invested in it.

Pathfinder is good. It is not the second coming of D&D.

Surshot is absolutely right. (Kevin Seimbeda)

Enlightened Grognard

When I step out of line the mods do their jobs. I don't benefit from some sort of special protection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:24 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:08 am
Posts: 18
I've got a friend on the champions worldbuilder team. She also worked on the failed stargate mmo, once showed me some screenshots from the machine world she was working on. Cryptic would do Rifts justice visually, no doubt about that.


I had one idea while reading through some replies, though I don't know how well this would go over.
Create an open source project like openrpg, virtual tabletop/whiteboard with text and voice chat, dice rolling, character sheets, and a pdf reader. In a cross platform language like java.
Brand it heavily with palladium logos and links, so unless someone wants to go through the source and clean it all out then no matter what system they use it to play there will be some palladium recognition.

Then do a running promotion. Let players nominate and vote for their favorite GM in the system, with quarterly winners getting prizes like a year subscription to the rifter or a free sourcebook.

_________________
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:25 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 9
As a lurker and ex-fan, you can thank Jaymz and Sureshot for bringing me out to post on this board. There is a lot of discussion about this on RPG.net. Not all of it is negative but a good chunk of it is. Most Palladium threads over there tend to head that way... but I prefer the ugly truth. And the negative theme is pretty consisteny, it’s not from people who have never played the game. It's not from people complaining about the settings of Palladium Fantasy, Rifts, the Megaverse. It's about the rules and it’s from those of us who will likely never play it again.

Quite simply, Palladium must reboot their system. Anyone with an ounce of business sense will tell you that satisfying existing customers at the expense of new ones results in a failed business. Has Palladium made it all this time despite this truism? Absolutely and credit should be given to some pretty incredible fans and independent writers that have injected new energy into the line on a periodic basis. Fans who have put up with delay after delay after delay. I know, I used to be one of them. But that will do nothing for bringing in new customers.

Now that I’ve hidden myself behind a fireproof wall, I’ll explain…

I’ve been with RPG’s since I was nine years old in 1984. I started with the TSR standard introduction but came across TMNT when it came out. I proceeded to lose all control of my addiction with the Big Black Book of Palladium Fantasy. I recruited my entire group of friends over to it. The battles in the Old Kingdom Mountains against the Gromeks, the Bearman destroying the hive of cultists in the Western Empire after escaping from slavery… We remember those days very fondly. My group, surprisingly, is almost the same (3 of 7 players) as it was back in high school. We’re in our mid-30’s now, all back from college, married with kids and we haven’t played Palladium since around 1994. I stayed with the company though for a bit longer. I loved the ideas and writings of Rifts, Ninjas&Superspies, Heroes Unlimited, Recon. In fact, I have the 1st editions of all those games and supplements. I own everything published for TMNT. I have both versions of Recon. I own nearly everything put out for Robotech. It goes without saying that I HAD everything published for Palladium Fantasy… but I don’t own Mysteries of Magic.

Because I don’t buy Palladium anymore.

I’m 35 years old now and I haven’t bought a Palladium book since 2002. It was Lands of the Damned (Bk2) and it ended a great resurgence in Palladium Fantasy. I bought all of those books despite not playing the game for nearly a decade. I stopped buying Rifts somewhere around the Coalition War. A phenomenal book and one that I treasure to this day and pull out to read every once in awhile. But Rifts is a lost cause to me. It was back then and it remains one to this day. I only played two short-lived games of Rifts and both of those were prior to 1993. Even then it was clear that the game lacked coherency, balance, and was headed in a direction of confusion fueled more by disparate visions than any real grasp of where it wanted to go.

But, man, was the writing excellent! I bought the books to read the sheer awesomeness of the setting.

Either way, you can call me a huge ex-fan. I loved Palladium’s writing, the art, the innovation and ingenuity that suffused the company. Like all of you, I knew the rules were pretty clunky but that was fine for the stories I wanted to tell in the worlds that Palladium had created as settings. That was almost two decades ago and, despite my love for the settings and ideas, I simply won’t touch the system and have not since around 1994.

The entire system is supported by a byzantine series of rules and hand-waves, explanations of “ignore this, use that.” Why would I play a game that requires me to carry around 10+ books that don’t even hold the answer that I’m looking for? A system that has no concept of fairness, balance or coherency? A system that rewards the guy/girl with the newest supplement? I don’t play d20 or D&D for the same reason.

I realize people love the system. That’s cool. Everyone gets to make their own pick of things they like and dislike in this wonderful world.

But I’m writing this to tell Palladium what it will take to get me back. I’m a good customer. I finally have the money to buy pretty much whatever I want although my gaming time is limited to one session every other week and PbP. Since January 1, 2011, I have spent over $500.00 on game books. I usually get two books every paycheck. So I’m not a bad customer to have… in fact, you could rate me right up there as an “addict” without much difficulty. But if you want me to play your game, you need to convince me to consider dedicating that one session every two weeks to your system. A system that is broken. A system that doesn’t cover the simplest of actions outside combat, a system that is archaic even when it comes to combat where it was once so special. When one has the choice of modern, tactical games out there why would I play Palladium? Innovative and exciting fantasy mechanics and magic systems, what does Palladium have that can compare to that? PPE? Sorry but that isn’t going to cut it anymore.

And it never changes. Palladium has trumpeted the same thing for decades and it’s not RPGs… “We’re gonna have a movie! We’ve got videogames in the works! Big license deals! Snazzy shirts! Awesome mugs!” That’s not a gaming company that is dedicated to putting out a quality product. It’s a marketing firm that is selling a brand without a substance. Who cares about a movie? A videogame? An MMO?

Why would we want that when we can’t even play the game with pencils and dice?

Now we have this thread that lists things that fans want to see from Palladium… More of the same. Movies, mugs, videogames, Facebook… all of it simply means that Palladium will remain old 1990’s Palladium. Heck, even I have grown up and changed since then.

Before you electronically eviscerate me just look on this very forum. It’s ironic that this thread is actually below a thread that is over FIVE YEARS old discussing a game that has never seen the sun. Warpath sounds cool but you can’t tell me that the game is “just about ready” with a straight face. To do so is called a lie. It’s been “about ready” for years.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53474

Five years and nothing. But we can still pre-order it:

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2 ... ry_Code=CS

Land of the Damned Book Three? We can pre-order it despite it being about seven years of vaporware.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2 ... _Code=F450

This instills absolutely no confidence in any new consumer base or those of us who would like to come back to Palladium.

And this is what new gamers hear… ‘system is broken, you’re twenty books behind to get all the rules that don’t work anyways and they haven’t hit a release deadline since the 1990’s.’ Who wants to spend money on that? Advertising will do nothing until there is something new to be advertised.

You want new consumers? You want us old folks with money to come back? Give us what we’ve been asking you for years. We have been asking for years and years. A new system.

In the end, Palladium needs to reboot the system. Keep the basics but update it. Palladium is not some special cow that shall never be sacrificed on the altar of innovation. It hasn’t seen an update since the mid-90’s. And that update wasn’t very good, all it did was strap the mechanics of Rifts to the older lines. It needs a new one desperately.

My Palladium books are in boxes. They’ve been there since three years ago when my group asked me to run an old-school Palladium game. We tried to capture some of the old magic… and everyone agreed that it wasn’t there anymore. But we’ve been a constant gaming group since 2000. We went back to another system that works much better. The Palladium books went back into the box and they’re still there. That’s not us getting old, that’s us outgrowing a system that is nearly twenty years old. We’re doing just fine with other games. The old magic is there and the fires are always burning.

So give us something to bring us back. I want to storm the Isle of Cyclops again! I still have Deathkiss and a doubling cube in one of those boxes.

And as for this being off-topic, I think the focus of this thread needs to stay where it should.

The system. Anything else is just more vapor.


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