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Unread postPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 3:02 am
  

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Explorer

Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
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Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Seto, my apologies once again for running silently until now, and thank you for posting me back!

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Presentation is, I would argue, even more important when Palladium Books is publishing games based on licensed intellectual property... particularly when that licensed material is originally from a visual medium like a comic book (e.g. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) or an animated television series (e.g. Robotech).


I'm glad I waited until now to reply; I think I hear you saying that putting the whole business with the Robotech Kickstarter and it being a licensed product (like the first Robotech book-and-paper RPGs Palladium put together) that (if I'm understanding correctly) didn't quite make it to the finish line, and the presentation of the corebook being not conceptually any different than the Palladium Books that've come out over the last twenty or thirty years. Am I following you accurately? I mean no sarcasm at all; I want to do my best to see the situation through your eyes and experiences.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
When you're looking to market licensed merchandise to fans, the fans and the IP holders (be they owners or simply licensees themselves) are going to have a certain baseline expectation of quality based on the source material and the quality of what other licensees are producing. The IP holder wants the licensee to make them look good with a high-quality, professional-looking product, where the fan wants something that is both authentically accurate to the source material and up to the quality standards of the other merchandise. For a long time, Palladium had a bit of a saving throw in their handling of their one "big" license because publication styles were different back then and the Robotech "brand" was a dead property with an "owner" that was exercising no quality control or oversight over licensee merchandise and there was no competition for the license. In the aftermath of regaining the license and expanding it into tabletop gaming, we've seen Palladium's approach to project management noticeably hurt the Robotech brand and directly contribute to the failure of a proposed sequel.


And it didn't help things, I gather, that the Kickstarter's promised Robotech products have not for the most part made it into the hands of its paid backers. I know the Robotech Tactics tabletop/miniatures game and the three Robotech RPGs (Robotech, Robotech II: The Sentinels, and Macross II; I'm leaving out 'The Shadow Chronicles' as I have no appreciable experience with it or own the corebook or any supplements there may have been by now) I'm more familiar and have experience with aren't the same thing at this point (besides sharing a series of licenses and the backstories), but my side of this is that I don't feel that Palladium Books have done their earlier Robotech licenses (and if I may, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness and After The Bomb per their other major long-term licensed products) any mark of injustice on which I'd place any roleplaying game I'm fond of. Having discovered TMNT & Other Strangeness around the same time I was reading the Archie TMNT comic books and watching the first cartoon series regularly (I wouldn't become familiar with the Mirage Comics that have much more in common with the TMNT RPG in tone or mood for quite a few years afterwards, sadly), although I did enjoy the writing and artwork, having at that time a licensed RPG that took itself seriously (and, I thought to myself at the time, like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy tended to as well) and didn't sugarcoat the whole business of being a glorified lab accident or vivisection candidate who had no rights beyond your average chattel animal and could take no chances with actually being part of the world they sometimes had contact with but would rarely if ever be a real part of.

I know we're talking about Robotech and specifically the presentation of what's been released for Robotech Tactics, but I wanted to say the above about how Palladium, at least in my mind, handled Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness and what I always thought was a very good presentation and consistent support for the game line that bore its name.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
It's especially important that Palladium present a well-organized, modern, and professional-looking book where the Robotech brand is concerned because they're not just the only licensee actually releasing something on a semi-regular basis... most fans are purchasing the books to use as unofficial reference material rather than to actually play the game. This is a well-known prediliction of Robotech fans, so I'm a little baffled that Palladium wouldn't attempt to actively cash in on it... especially as it's a heaven-sent way to pad page count.


No argument there, not in today's gaming environment and business sector. I won't slap WOTC for upping the stakes in production values, and I won't say anything poor about Palladium for not keeping up with them; I do agree that both being a licensed product (and a very recent product at that) with a whole lot of industry eyes (not to mention Harmony Gold, whom I assume is still the company Robotech is licensed from) on Robotech Tactics and judging by what I've heard in the last couple of years here on the Megaversal Forums, products promised as part of the Kickstarter are now years in arrears. That's not the kind of thing that earns your repeat customers outside of a Kickstarter.

That said (and I'm not defending or condoning Palladium's actions one way or another), I can say that when I first got into the Robotech and TMNT RPGs (I guess early 1990s) what was provided and supported was more than commendable, in those days of yore. I don't know how much the stakes have been kicked up now, but I suspect there's a lot less room for error under the circumstances now.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
I'm sure location is a factor, but this marginalization of Palladium's products seems to be a nationwide problem if the posts I've seen about it in here and in the past are any indicator. Unlike other publishers, Palladium doesn't seem to be making an effort to keep pace with an evolving industry. They're inexplicably averse to color printing, variation in page layout, and seemingly EXTREMELY averse to digital distribution. That last one is certainly hurting Palladium's bottom line, as there are people who want eBooks or PDFs, and are illegally downloading the books in addition to, or instead of, buying them in stores. There's a certain amount of piracy that's unavoidable as the result of ne'er do wells, but they're actively neglecting a profit center... a very easily exploited profit center.


Am in complete agreement with you here. I don't know why it is that Palladium, if not Kevin specifically (I've heard different bits and pieces about who and why, and I don't want to say I know if I honestly don't; indeed, I know very little concretely) is as uncomfortable with the idea of putting out Palladium Books' back catalog as legally purchasable and downloadable PDFs, but assuming the prices were competitive (or say, issuing a whole chunk of product line for a fixed price) and given the current demand for product that would not necessarily be bought in physical print format, I suspect Palladium Books would be giving themselves a whole lot of exposure and a considerable bit of revenue. I understand what you're saying about Palladium Books' works are often being bought as resources for non-Palladium RPGs, and it limits how much such a purchase puts Palladium's work on the map if it's not put forth and/or used as Palladium's work. I mean, it's up to the individual players and GMs what a book is used for, but I think it's fair to think that a Palladium Book would be used as a supplement for a Palladium Game (Session).

Again, thanks for giving me the time to ruminate on your post before I put up my response, Seto. ^_^

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 7:26 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
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Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Actually...in the last year or so they have been slowly and finally putting out their back catalogue as PDFs on DriveThruRPG...though a little too late for it to really mean anything if you ask me.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:58 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Still here in a local game store in Saskatoon and it's still being carried in Regina's Tramps I believe, but like I said I won't be here much longer and sadly won't have a place to purchase from except from online, and shipping to a small apartment in South Korea where I won't even have a local group is less than appealing due to cost. I would purchase my entire collection online if I had the opportunity but like I said above I can't, especially with less available books that I own like TMNT, never mind the new Rifts stuff, Nightbane, and others that DriveThruRPG is missing.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 12:17 pm
  

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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
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Location: Snoqualmie, WA
Are we talking within the P&P gaming community or everyone? If your talking everyone I'd gamble that most people after the advent of affordable consoles with decent graphics and games with AA stories and just enough options to fool you into believing your playing a real RPG rather than a simulator along with the convenience of never having to organize everyone's relocation to a meeting place. Makes P&P gaming inconvenient which is very unnatractive to most Melinnials, which they'd likely describe as obsolete and inferior to their console RPGs. Those of us who enjoy P&P know part of the allure is personal interaction which most Melinnials have replaced with a friend button.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 9:58 pm
  

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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
Posts: 179
Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Jaymz, good evening!

jaymz wrote:
Actually...in the last year or so they have been slowly and finally putting out their back catalogue as PDFs on DriveThruRPG...though a little too late for it to really mean anything if you ask me.


Well, that's at least a good start. I'm comfortable with DriveThruRPG as a distribution platform, as I've gotten both a number of freebies as well as have bought a handful of items there (in PDF, natch) and while I haven't browsed through their offerrings in several months, I'll be looking at Palladium Books' catalogue there the next time I visit. Thanks kindly for mentioning it my way; I've been ruminating about going up to one of the two remaining Hairy Tarantula locations (the flagship store shut down a couple of months ago, tho' all of their considerable remaining stock was shipped up to the location at Steeles (northern TTC and 'city boundary', roughly) in North York) and filling in a number of gaps in my World Book-shelf (the most recent straight-line without gaps in release on said shelf is WB 19: Australia); depending on what's being charged on DTRPG I may double up here and there, at least for now.

If you don't mind me asking: is there a FLGS you yourself depend and can depend on close to home? I know Silver Snail had a location in Ottawa (I believe it went out of business in the last couple of years; it even made the local papers, which is why I suspect my memory is strong enough about it, if it's true), but Peterborough's not Ottawa location- wise, by any stretch.

Promena, good evening!

Promena wrote:
Still here in a local game store in Saskatoon and it's still being carried in Regina's Tramps I believe, but like I said I won't be here much longer and sadly won't have a place to purchase from except from online, and shipping to a small apartment in South Korea where I won't even have a local group is less than appealing due to cost. I would purchase my entire collection online if I had the opportunity but like I said above I can't, especially with less available books that I own like TMNT, never mind the new Rifts stuff, Nightbane, and others that DriveThruRPG is missing.


It's great to hear there's still support out in Saskatchewan; I sometimes go back through my late-1980s to mid-1990s Dragon Magazines (TSR era) just for the fun of looking through all of the 'pre-Internet' ground address advertisements near the back of each magazine (at least by that time; go back to the early 1980s Dragon- or early-1980s gaming, period- or prior to that and it's almost completely uncharted waters for me) and seeing if any were in Canada or at least not super-duper far out of the way; as well as seeing committed gaming stores that were, indeed, in Canada, was a real treat. I have no memory of seeing old-horse stores like the Worldhouse (R.I.P.) or Silver Snail in those pages- come to think of it, I can't remember seeing any Ontario stores then, though there were some (there were, for example, hobby stores for modelling enthusiasts that sometimes carried lead miniatures, some cast in-store, or specialty bookstores that sometimes carried gaming materials aside from novels alone, here in Toronto) that held their flags up clearly. ^_^

Zer0 Kay, good evening!

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Are we talking within the P&P gaming community or everyone? If your talking everyone I'd gamble that most people after the advent of affordable consoles with decent graphics and games with AA stories and just enough options to fool you into believing your playing a real RPG rather than a simulator along with the convenience of never having to organize everyone's relocation to a meeting place. Makes P&P gaming inconvenient which is very unnatractive to most Melinnials, which they'd likely describe as obsolete and inferior to their console RPGs. Those of us who enjoy P&P know part of the allure is personal interaction which most Melinnials have replaced with a friend button.


I think for me that this is the straddling-point I got into gaming with, both as a late-end 'Generation X' (I think) and with what resources I had available to me at the time. I never got into consoles for my PC/video gaming, either when I was wee or by the time I was in high school and was beginning to build my collection of RPGs (again, that started with Palladium's work in late 1989 or so, which would've been the middle of junior high for me); as for computers I didn't even have my own computer (aside from user's affection, I think my calling the first computer that was mine alone a 'rig' would've been too much of a compliment) until the end of 1992, and wouldn't have a computer that I could play any reasonably modern game available in the 1990s until 1998 or so, after college for me. I used my computer as an intermittent communications tool (dial-up modem BBSing and word processing) and for schoolwork: for the most part, it served little other purpose by definition or utility. The very first computer I owned that was brand-new and could play newly-released PC games of the day would've been in late 2005, I think. Getting together with other people, whether for gaming or company, sometimes with the very same Millennial folk you mention, ZK, was the socializing I did for most of those years. Again, my situation is not necessarily rare, but it is unusual for someone with my interests and when (and how) I got into them.

As for people being 'fooled into' believing they're playing a real RPG, I think that line of thought is a product of our being as comfortable as we've become (myself included, to be fair) of having both a decent library of games, miniatures and dice, as well as one or more gaming groups of friends and associates we could count on. I know I'm not sitting down at a table with real folk when I play one of the Witcher games, or Skyrim or Oblivion, or even strictly speaking the one MMO I've gotten into (Elder Scrolls: Online), even if I'm constantly reminding myself that at least in that last case there are real people behind those polygonal avatars and not just a sophisticated NPC algorithm processed by my computer and the game I'm playing, but I don't think such things are a lesser tool of creativity or a 'boundary range of real gaming' or otherwise of what we consider to be (or not to be) a 'real' RPG. There was an article in Computer Gaming World (I have a PDF of it, obtained freely through a website a number of years ago in a batch of the first 100 issues of CGW), the first issue, I believe, which dates from the early 1980s, titled (deceptively?) 'The Future Of War Gaming' by a game designer of the era named Chris Crawford, and when I got through your above post I immediately thought of that article.

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:12 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 6364
Pronema wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Pronema wrote:
Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?



That would be Kevin and his weekly updates.......and whatever the individual Megaveral Volunteers....I mean Ambassadors do. That is it.

Well, that's a little unfortunate, that likely means no one employed actually reads this. And I doubt I will see the rest of Palladium's books released on DriveThruRPG, which is sort of a pain as I can't take that much with me overseas. So I will be missing a bunch of books. Well it would have been over a 1000 dollar purchase of books I already own anyway so I guess I am saving some money.


zyanitevp (username might be slightly off) keeps in contact with the folks at palladium, and is also in charge of the megaversal ambassadors program i think. or is possibly just volunteering more time than anyone else. not totally clear on that. anyways, zyanite does read the forums and passes at least some things on.

as to books appearing on drivethrurpg, you're in luck there. palladium has lately been working through their library of books and converting them to PDF, including the books that are not out of print (previously it was only out-of-print stuff).


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:08 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12486
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Quote:
f you don't mind me asking: is there a FLGS you yourself depend and can depend on close to home? I know Silver Snail had a location in Ottawa (I believe it went out of business in the last couple of years; it even made the local papers, which is why I suspect my memory is strong enough about it, if it's true), but Peterborough's not Ottawa location- wise, by any stretch.



We have an LGS but in regards to pb product....i am the only one who ever gets any and its special order. After literally years of trying to drum up interest i gave up.

There is another store coming in July. Duelling Grounds is moving to Peterborough from Toronto.

So my gaming access is either special or online orders for the most part.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 7:29 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:48 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
For me, it has been Dragon's Den in Saskatoon, and Tramps in Regina.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:18 pm
  

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Explorer

Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
Posts: 179
Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Jaymz, good evening!

jaymz wrote:
We have an LGS but in regards to pb product....i am the only one who ever gets any and its special order. After literally years of trying to drum up interest i gave up.


I don't think I've ever known enough local Palladium enthusiasts or players here in Toronto to get a feel for where a lot of folks here got their PB product; I mainly depended on the original locations (Eglinton & Yonge, long since gone, and Queen & Peter's original location; now very close to the Eaton Centre at Yonge & Dundas, I believe right above where the HMV once was) of both Silver Snails for the bulk of my gaming purchases, at least Palladium Books' work. A pleasant surprise- as well as having two owners with a knack for finding obscurities, RPG or otherwise- was a store called Shining Knight, not far from where I went to high school, that was owned by the same two brothers until they sold their interests in the store (I don't know exactly when, although it was after I graduated from high school) and it was renamed Comics & More, where the one brother I knew best worked as an employee and community face until severe illness (and finally, his death in late 2015) drew him away. That store (SK, at least) was probably the one place- including by that point, Silver Snail- that I frequented and knew carried pretty much any Palladium product that was available during their operating years, and if something slipped under the radar, they'd almost certainly be able to get it in. There was The Worldhouse, going back decades to the early college/university D&D boom, but that was long before my time; although I miss it terribly, being the only 'pure' RPG/Wargame store I remember knowing of here, that carried nothing but to the exclusion of everything else.

jaymz wrote:
There is another store coming in July. Duelling Grounds is moving to Peterborough from Toronto.


I'm sorry to hear business for DG hasn't been good here in Toronto, then. I know about the store (haven't visited it yet, and from what you've said I might be wise to pay a visit before June or so) and had intended to go there eventually, but I guess I'm working on a time limit for that now. Still, I'm happy that you'll be able to have another place to choose from in Peterborough.

jaymz wrote:
So my gaming access is either special or online orders for the most part.


I know the feeling. I keep kicking myself about being uncomfortable with going to Hairy Tarantula on Yonge for years, the very same location and everything, going back to my high school days in the early 1990s, and after finally paying a visit this past December finding out that they'd be pulling up stakes two months later (February was what was quoted by the two employees I met). Right then and there I knew I was standing in the midst of the biggest selection of RPGs from dozens of companies I'd been in, in the last twenty years or so, and it hurt my heart for the first time in that long knowing that they'd be closing down. I think the last time I felt that way was either when Silver Snail Eglinton shut down or when Shining Knight became Comics & More.

Most of my options now seem to parallel yours, and I expect neither of us are alone in any degree in that.

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:23 pm
  

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Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
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Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Pronema, good evening!

Pronema wrote:
For me, it has been Dragon's Den in Saskatoon, and Tramps in Regina.


Dragon's Den; I remember that name from the Dragon Magazine advertisement sections from the 1990s, and I'm almost certain it was in Saskatoon. If it's one and the same (I'm going to go looking through my print issues for said potentially-existing advertisement) I'm very happy to hear that it's weathered the years until now. Tramps doesn't ring a bell, but if it's a newer store (or one that was post-TSR era) I doubt a mention of it would've reached me in Ontario during the last decade or so.

Have you any preferences for particular Palladium RPGs? My longtime two 'go-to' games are Rifts and Palladium Fantasy, or at least they still are now. (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness and Beyond The Supernatural are old favourites, but I haven't really done anything with them or the books I own for them for some time now.)

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:00 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12486
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Dg is moving as a life choice of sorts not due to sales and peterborough will certainly be better for it :)

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Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, AIM - icesith1, MSN Messenger - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, ICQ - 127915633, Yahoo Messenger - demonjames666, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:08 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Posts: 12140
Location: Snoqualmie, WA
Boethermsbrukan wrote:
Jaymz, good evening!

jaymz wrote:
Actually...in the last year or so they have been slowly and finally putting out their back catalogue as PDFs on DriveThruRPG...though a little too late for it to really mean anything if you ask me.


Well, that's at least a good start. I'm comfortable with DriveThruRPG as a distribution platform, as I've gotten both a number of freebies as well as have bought a handful of items there (in PDF, natch) and while I haven't browsed through their offerrings in several months, I'll be looking at Palladium Books' catalogue there the next time I visit. Thanks kindly for mentioning it my way; I've been ruminating about going up to one of the two remaining Hairy Tarantula locations (the flagship store shut down a couple of months ago, tho' all of their considerable remaining stock was shipped up to the location at Steeles (northern TTC and 'city boundary', roughly) in North York) and filling in a number of gaps in my World Book-shelf (the most recent straight-line without gaps in release on said shelf is WB 19: Australia); depending on what's being charged on DTRPG I may double up here and there, at least for now.

If you don't mind me asking: is there a FLGS you yourself depend and can depend on close to home? I know Silver Snail had a location in Ottawa (I believe it went out of business in the last couple of years; it even made the local papers, which is why I suspect my memory is strong enough about it, if it's true), but Peterborough's not Ottawa location- wise, by any stretch.

Promena, good evening!

Promena wrote:
Still here in a local game store in Saskatoon and it's still being carried in Regina's Tramps I believe, but like I said I won't be here much longer and sadly won't have a place to purchase from except from online, and shipping to a small apartment in South Korea where I won't even have a local group is less than appealing due to cost. I would purchase my entire collection online if I had the opportunity but like I said above I can't, especially with less available books that I own like TMNT, never mind the new Rifts stuff, Nightbane, and others that DriveThruRPG is missing.


It's great to hear there's still support out in Saskatchewan; I sometimes go back through my late-1980s to mid-1990s Dragon Magazines (TSR era) just for the fun of looking through all of the 'pre-Internet' ground address advertisements near the back of each magazine (at least by that time; go back to the early 1980s Dragon- or early-1980s gaming, period- or prior to that and it's almost completely uncharted waters for me) and seeing if any were in Canada or at least not super-duper far out of the way; as well as seeing committed gaming stores that were, indeed, in Canada, was a real treat. I have no memory of seeing old-horse stores like the Worldhouse (R.I.P.) or Silver Snail in those pages- come to think of it, I can't remember seeing any Ontario stores then, though there were some (there were, for example, hobby stores for modelling enthusiasts that sometimes carried lead miniatures, some cast in-store, or specialty bookstores that sometimes carried gaming materials aside from novels alone, here in Toronto) that held their flags up clearly. ^_^

Zer0 Kay, good evening!

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Are we talking within the P&P gaming community or everyone? If your talking everyone I'd gamble that most people after the advent of affordable consoles with decent graphics and games with AA stories and just enough options to fool you into believing your playing a real RPG rather than a simulator along with the convenience of never having to organize everyone's relocation to a meeting place. Makes P&P gaming inconvenient which is very unnatractive to most Melinnials, which they'd likely describe as obsolete and inferior to their console RPGs. Those of us who enjoy P&P know part of the allure is personal interaction which most Melinnials have replaced with a friend button.


I think for me that this is the straddling-point I got into gaming with, both as a late-end 'Generation X' (I think) and with what resources I had available to me at the time. I never got into consoles for my PC/video gaming, either when I was wee or by the time I was in high school and was beginning to build my collection of RPGs (again, that started with Palladium's work in late 1989 or so, which would've been the middle of junior high for me); as for computers I didn't even have my own computer (aside from user's affection, I think my calling the first computer that was mine alone a 'rig' would've been too much of a compliment) until the end of 1992, and wouldn't have a computer that I could play any reasonably modern game available in the 1990s until 1998 or so, after college for me. I used my computer as an intermittent communications tool (dial-up modem BBSing and word processing) and for schoolwork: for the most part, it served little other purpose by definition or utility. The very first computer I owned that was brand-new and could play newly-released PC games of the day would've been in late 2005, I think. Getting together with other people, whether for gaming or company, sometimes with the very same Millennial folk you mention, ZK, was the socializing I did for most of those years. Again, my situation is not necessarily rare, but it is unusual for someone with my interests and when (and how) I got into them.

As for people being 'fooled into' believing they're playing a real RPG, I think that line of thought is a product of our being as comfortable as we've become (myself included, to be fair) of having both a decent library of games, miniatures and dice, as well as one or more gaming groups of friends and associates we could count on. I know I'm not sitting down at a table with real folk when I play one of the Witcher games, or Skyrim or Oblivion, or even strictly speaking the one MMO I've gotten into (Elder Scrolls: Online), even if I'm constantly reminding myself that at least in that last case there are real people behind those polygonal avatars and not just a sophisticated NPC algorithm processed by my computer and the game I'm playing, but I don't think such things are a lesser tool of creativity or a 'boundary range of real gaming' or otherwise of what we consider to be (or not to be) a 'real' RPG. There was an article in Computer Gaming World (I have a PDF of it, obtained freely through a website a number of years ago in a batch of the first 100 issues of CGW), the first issue, I believe, which dates from the early 1980s, titled (deceptively?) 'The Future Of War Gaming' by a game designer of the era named Chris Crawford, and when I got through your above post I immediately thought of that article.

-Boe.

Hey How. The reason I consider computer or console RPGs and even MMO RPGs "lesser" tool is because they simulate a GM the possible responses are locked in the moment the game is published minus possible upgrades. Usually there is a main story line with sidequests that have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline once that is complete your left waiting for an add-on or dealing with random encounters or worse replaying old scenarios to get items you didnt get on the first play through. If an RPG style is applied to a computer it instantly limits the scope to what is put into the game making it an RPS. Examples like there are always boundaries to a RPS even with an add on it just extends the boundary, conversations with NPCs always have limited player and NPC responses. Essentially PC/Console (MMO) RPSs are like running an old D&D module by reading the text word for word without deviation. Regardless of all the extra movements you put in the conclusion is the same. I've been playing Star Trek online and I've been loving the storyline and how important it makes you feel your character and then I remember every other Federation player and in some areas Romulan Republic or Klingon Empire player has done this same mission with little deviation of import.

HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I loved the old SSI games and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Phantasy Star and Lunar and every other RPS I've played. I just don't like that younger generations prefer these to RPGs. That the younger generation thinks clicking on a friend button is the same thing as making a friend.

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 9:03 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:16 am
Posts: 29
Zer0 Kay wrote:
Hey How. The reason I consider computer or console RPGs and even MMO RPGs "lesser" tool is because they simulate a GM the possible responses are locked in the moment the game is published minus possible upgrades. Usually there is a main story line with sidequests that have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline once that is complete your left waiting for an add-on or dealing with random encounters or worse replaying old scenarios to get items you didnt get on the first play through. If an RPG style is applied to a computer it instantly limits the scope to what is put into the game making it an RPS. Examples like there are always boundaries to a RPS even with an add on it just extends the boundary, conversations with NPCs always have limited player and NPC responses. Essentially PC/Console (MMO) RPSs are like running an old D&D module by reading the text word for word without deviation. Regardless of all the extra movements you put in the conclusion is the same. I've been playing Star Trek online and I've been loving the storyline and how important it makes you feel your character and then I remember every other Federation player and in some areas Romulan Republic or Klingon Empire player has done this same mission with little deviation of import.

HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I loved the old SSI games and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Phantasy Star and Lunar and every other RPS I've played. I just don't like that younger generations prefer these to RPGs. That the younger generation thinks clicking on a friend button is the same thing as making a friend.


Keep in mind that all those computer games that kids today get into either work right out of the box, are are quickly patched up. Otherwise nobody plays them. Palladium does not work out of the box. Also, Palladium does not have the name recognition it used to, and thanks to Kevin it has no internet presence. So even if new players find it, they will be turned off of it, and maybe all pnp RPGs, by the incoherent rules and layout. Sadly, if you want to expand, you have to cater to the larger audience, not the same fans it has catered to for the past 30 years, who already have all your books.

After all, if the hypothetical Rifts 2.0 came out, the true fans would still buy it and try it (maybe not like it, but at least try it). Otherwise they are not true fans, just bitter old men complaining how they used to go to school, barefoot, in snow, uphill.


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Unread postPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:11 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador Coordinator

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:13 am
Posts: 2105
Location: Sekti-Abtu
Comment: Check out our Twitch stream!
Shark_Force wrote:
Pronema wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Pronema wrote:
Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?



That would be Kevin and his weekly updates.......and whatever the individual Megaveral Volunteers....I mean Ambassadors do. That is it.

Well, that's a little unfortunate, that likely means no one employed actually reads this. And I doubt I will see the rest of Palladium's books released on DriveThruRPG, which is sort of a pain as I can't take that much with me overseas. So I will be missing a bunch of books. Well it would have been over a 1000 dollar purchase of books I already own anyway so I guess I am saving some money.


zyanitevp (username might be slightly off) keeps in contact with the folks at palladium, and is also in charge of the megaversal ambassadors program i think. or is possibly just volunteering more time than anyone else. not totally clear on that. anyways, zyanite does read the forums and passes at least some things on.

as to books appearing on drivethrurpg, you're in luck there. palladium has lately been working through their library of books and converting them to PDF, including the books that are not out of print (previously it was only out-of-print stuff).

I am one of the 4 coordinators of the MA program, along with NMI, Phaze, and Reelman. We have quarterly meetings with Palladium, and coordinate getting swag to MA's running convention games.

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 10:47 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12486
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
zyanitevp wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Pronema wrote:
jaymz wrote:
Pronema wrote:
Who is the head of PR and/or Marketing/Promotions for Palladium? Or do they even have one? If they do, what has that person been doing these past years?



That would be Kevin and his weekly updates.......and whatever the individual Megaveral Volunteers....I mean Ambassadors do. That is it.

Well, that's a little unfortunate, that likely means no one employed actually reads this. And I doubt I will see the rest of Palladium's books released on DriveThruRPG, which is sort of a pain as I can't take that much with me overseas. So I will be missing a bunch of books. Well it would have been over a 1000 dollar purchase of books I already own anyway so I guess I am saving some money.


zyanitevp (username might be slightly off) keeps in contact with the folks at palladium, and is also in charge of the megaversal ambassadors program i think. or is possibly just volunteering more time than anyone else. not totally clear on that. anyways, zyanite does read the forums and passes at least some things on.

as to books appearing on drivethrurpg, you're in luck there. palladium has lately been working through their library of books and converting them to PDF, including the books that are not out of print (previously it was only out-of-print stuff).

I am one of the 4 coordinators of the MA program, along with NMI, Phaze, and Reelman. We have quarterly meetings with Palladium, and coordinate getting swag to MA's running convention games.


And this is the one Coordinator I actually trust......

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:43 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
Posts: 179
Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Zer0 Kay, good morning!

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Boethermsbrukan wrote:
I think for me that this is the straddling-point I got into gaming with, both as a late-end 'Generation X' (I think) and with what resources I had available to me at the time. I never got into consoles for my PC/video gaming, either when I was wee or by the time I was in high school and was beginning to build my collection of RPGs (again, that started with Palladium's work in late 1989 or so, which would've been the middle of junior high for me); as for computers I didn't even have my own computer (aside from user's affection, I think my calling the first computer that was mine alone a 'rig' would've been too much of a compliment) until the end of 1992, and wouldn't have a computer that I could play any reasonably modern game available in the 1990s until 1998 or so, after college for me. I used my computer as an intermittent communications tool (dial-up modem BBSing and word processing) and for schoolwork: for the most part, it served little other purpose by definition or utility. The very first computer I owned that was brand-new and could play newly-released PC games of the day would've been in late 2005, I think. Getting together with other people, whether for gaming or company, sometimes with the very same Millennial folk you mention, ZK, was the socializing I did for most of those years. Again, my situation is not necessarily rare, but it is unusual for someone with my interests and when (and how) I got into them.

As for people being 'fooled into' believing they're playing a real RPG, I think that line of thought is a product of our being as comfortable as we've become (myself included, to be fair) of having both a decent library of games, miniatures and dice, as well as one or more gaming groups of friends and associates we could count on. I know I'm not sitting down at a table with real folk when I play one of the Witcher games, or Skyrim or Oblivion, or even strictly speaking the one MMO I've gotten into (Elder Scrolls: Online), even if I'm constantly reminding myself that at least in that last case there are real people behind those polygonal avatars and not just a sophisticated NPC algorithm processed by my computer and the game I'm playing, but I don't think such things are a lesser tool of creativity or a 'boundary range of real gaming' or otherwise of what we consider to be (or not to be) a 'real' RPG. There was an article in Computer Gaming World (I have a PDF of it, obtained freely through a website a number of years ago in a batch of the first 100 issues of CGW), the first issue, I believe, which dates from the early 1980s, titled (deceptively?) 'The Future Of War Gaming' by a game designer of the era named Chris Crawford, and when I got through your above post I immediately thought of that article.


Hey How. The reason I consider computer or console RPGs and even MMO RPGs "lesser" tool is because they simulate a GM the possible responses are locked in the moment the game is published minus possible upgrades. Usually there is a main story line with sidequests that have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline once that is complete your left waiting for an add-on or dealing with random encounters or worse replaying old scenarios to get items you didnt get on the first play through. If an RPG style is applied to a computer it instantly limits the scope to what is put into the game making it an RPS. Examples like there are always boundaries to a RPS even with an add on it just extends the boundary, conversations with NPCs always have limited player and NPC responses. Essentially PC/Console (MMO) RPSs are like running an old D&D module by reading the text word for word without deviation. Regardless of all the extra movements you put in the conclusion is the same. I've been playing Star Trek online and I've been loving the storyline and how important it makes you feel your character and then I remember every other Federation player and in some areas Romulan Republic or Klingon Empire player has done this same mission with little deviation of import.


I think my tone in the post above was more than a little excessive, and I apologize for that. Crawford's article was written in the days when the personal computer was still getting its proper footing (much less doing anything approaching what computers do and can do today); it just oozed with 'grumpy old man likes things how they are!' and 'these dumb kids just don't know any better', and I'm sorry I suggested what you posted came parallel to his tone. Having gotten started in tabletop gaming well before I got anywhere near a computer, I can understand that what many newer and younger players (or potential players) see as 'RPGs' are sometimes oversimplified regarding what a player puts into it now, compared to a sit-down game with a half-dozen real people.

My biggest disagreement with the argument that modern computer fantasy games (or console games) inspire- or reduce inspiration in the direction of- less involvement of the player at the keyboard or controller is that because modern games and hardware are capable of providing more visually and sonically engrossing play, environments and choices a given player can make in character creation (if it involves such a thing, like the Elder Scrolls series, for example) and in-game play, it should not necessarily be set aside as a 'better illusion' (even though by definition it might as well be one) of a tabletop RPG. I think modern PC and console games are 'apples' to tabletop RPGs 'oranges'; I choose to endorse the argument that neither is 'better' in any absolute, across-the-board sense. Of course, as you and I are both longtime tabletop enthusiasts, along with I assume the bulk of our membership here, seeing the winnowing of our player base away from tabletop gaming and more and more youngsters preferring video gaming, is disheartening, and I respect that.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I loved the old SSI games and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Phantasy Star and Lunar and every other RPS I've played. I just don't like that younger generations prefer these to RPGs. That the younger generation thinks clicking on a friend button is the same thing as making a friend.


I remember being at the house of the one good friend I had in junior high and high school (in fact, he was the fellow who got me into gaming and Palladium's work in the first place) and watching him play Pools of Radiance or Eye Of The Beholder (both SSI Gold Boxes, I think), then afterwards going through his Monster Manual (he had the bulk of the 3-hole-punched contents, and the binder proper) and his Rifts and Palladium Fantasy books with him, and I don't think we ever gave a lot of credence to thinking, at least in those days, to RPGs being pushed aside by many newer players today. But there was never any confusion that we were playing an SSI Gold Box RPG or that we were playing Rifts or Werewolf: the Apocalypse; individually, I mean. We never expected there to be such a difference in what RPGs were and how they were seen twenty-five years later.

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:18 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 1:59 pm
Posts: 12140
Location: Snoqualmie, WA
Boethermsbrukan wrote:
Zer0 Kay, good morning!

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Boethermsbrukan wrote:
I think for me that this is the straddling-point I got into gaming with, both as a late-end 'Generation X' (I think) and with what resources I had available to me at the time. I never got into consoles for my PC/video gaming, either when I was wee or by the time I was in high school and was beginning to build my collection of RPGs (again, that started with Palladium's work in late 1989 or so, which would've been the middle of junior high for me); as for computers I didn't even have my own computer (aside from user's affection, I think my calling the first computer that was mine alone a 'rig' would've been too much of a compliment) until the end of 1992, and wouldn't have a computer that I could play any reasonably modern game available in the 1990s until 1998 or so, after college for me. I used my computer as an intermittent communications tool (dial-up modem BBSing and word processing) and for schoolwork: for the most part, it served little other purpose by definition or utility. The very first computer I owned that was brand-new and could play newly-released PC games of the day would've been in late 2005, I think. Getting together with other people, whether for gaming or company, sometimes with the very same Millennial folk you mention, ZK, was the socializing I did for most of those years. Again, my situation is not necessarily rare, but it is unusual for someone with my interests and when (and how) I got into them.

As for people being 'fooled into' believing they're playing a real RPG, I think that line of thought is a product of our being as comfortable as we've become (myself included, to be fair) of having both a decent library of games, miniatures and dice, as well as one or more gaming groups of friends and associates we could count on. I know I'm not sitting down at a table with real folk when I play one of the Witcher games, or Skyrim or Oblivion, or even strictly speaking the one MMO I've gotten into (Elder Scrolls: Online), even if I'm constantly reminding myself that at least in that last case there are real people behind those polygonal avatars and not just a sophisticated NPC algorithm processed by my computer and the game I'm playing, but I don't think such things are a lesser tool of creativity or a 'boundary range of real gaming' or otherwise of what we consider to be (or not to be) a 'real' RPG. There was an article in Computer Gaming World (I have a PDF of it, obtained freely through a website a number of years ago in a batch of the first 100 issues of CGW), the first issue, I believe, which dates from the early 1980s, titled (deceptively?) 'The Future Of War Gaming' by a game designer of the era named Chris Crawford, and when I got through your above post I immediately thought of that article.


Hey How. The reason I consider computer or console RPGs and even MMO RPGs "lesser" tool is because they simulate a GM the possible responses are locked in the moment the game is published minus possible upgrades. Usually there is a main story line with sidequests that have absolutely nothing to do with the storyline once that is complete your left waiting for an add-on or dealing with random encounters or worse replaying old scenarios to get items you didnt get on the first play through. If an RPG style is applied to a computer it instantly limits the scope to what is put into the game making it an RPS. Examples like there are always boundaries to a RPS even with an add on it just extends the boundary, conversations with NPCs always have limited player and NPC responses. Essentially PC/Console (MMO) RPSs are like running an old D&D module by reading the text word for word without deviation. Regardless of all the extra movements you put in the conclusion is the same. I've been playing Star Trek online and I've been loving the storyline and how important it makes you feel your character and then I remember every other Federation player and in some areas Romulan Republic or Klingon Empire player has done this same mission with little deviation of import.


I think my tone in the post above was more than a little excessive, and I apologize for that. Crawford's article was written in the days when the personal computer was still getting its proper footing (much less doing anything approaching what computers do and can do today); it just oozed with 'grumpy old man likes things how they are!' and 'these dumb kids just don't know any better', and I'm sorry I suggested what you posted came parallel to his tone. Having gotten started in tabletop gaming well before I got anywhere near a computer, I can understand that what many newer and younger players (or potential players) see as 'RPGs' are sometimes oversimplified regarding what a player puts into it now, compared to a sit-down game with a half-dozen real people.

My biggest disagreement with the argument that modern computer fantasy games (or console games) inspire- or reduce inspiration in the direction of- less involvement of the player at the keyboard or controller is that because modern games and hardware are capable of providing more visually and sonically engrossing play, environments and choices a given player can make in character creation (if it involves such a thing, like the Elder Scrolls series, for example) and in-game play, it should not necessarily be set aside as a 'better illusion' (even though by definition it might as well be one) of a tabletop RPG. I think modern PC and console games are 'apples' to tabletop RPGs 'oranges'; I choose to endorse the argument that neither is 'better' in any absolute, across-the-board sense. Of course, as you and I are both longtime tabletop enthusiasts, along with I assume the bulk of our membership here, seeing the winnowing of our player base away from tabletop gaming and more and more youngsters preferring video gaming, is disheartening, and I respect that.

Zer0 Kay wrote:
HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I loved the old SSI games and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Phantasy Star and Lunar and every other RPS I've played. I just don't like that younger generations prefer these to RPGs. That the younger generation thinks clicking on a friend button is the same thing as making a friend.


I remember being at the house of the one good friend I had in junior high and high school (in fact, he was the fellow who got me into gaming and Palladium's work in the first place) and watching him play Pools of Radiance or Eye Of The Beholder (both SSI Gold Boxes, I think), then afterwards going through his Monster Manual (he had the bulk of the 3-hole-punched contents, and the binder proper) and his Rifts and Palladium Fantasy books with him, and I don't think we ever gave a lot of credence to thinking, at least in those days, to RPGs being pushed aside by many newer players today. But there was never any confusion that we were playing an SSI Gold Box RPG or that we were playing Rifts or Werewolf: the Apocalypse; individually, I mean. We never expected there to be such a difference in what RPGs were and how they were seen twenty-five years later.

-Boe.


I didn't detect that tone. And I am that old guy. The one that thinks Gygax era D&D is superior to Hasbro's.for no other reason than being an elitist geek. A game only needs and geeks could play because for the most part no one else was capable or interested in the math.
I don't think the economy of the last 8 years helped with disposable incomes either. Maybe the following 4... 3.xx years will see an increase in income and an increase in escapism. Now how do we convince all those console kiddies that pen and paper are fun too?

_________________
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper

BEST IDEA EVER!!! -- The Galactus Kid

Holy crapy, you're Zer0 Kay?! --TriaxTech

Zer0 Kay is my hero. --Atramentus

The Zer0 of Kay, who started this fray,
Kept us laughing until the end. -The Fifth Business (In loving Memory of the teleport thread)


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:01 am
  

User avatar
Explorer

Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm
Posts: 179
Location: New Lazlo (Toronto, Ontario)
Comment: Defiling Heir
Zer0 Kay, good morning!

Zer0 Kay wrote:
HOWEVER, do not get me wrong. I loved the old SSI games and Bards Tale and Wizardry and Phantasy Star and Lunar and every other RPS I've played. I just don't like that younger generations prefer these to RPGs. That the younger generation thinks clicking on a friend button is the same thing as making a friend.

Boethermsbrukan wrote:
I remember being at the house of the one good friend I had in junior high and high school (in fact, he was the fellow who got me into gaming and Palladium's work in the first place) and watching him play Pools of Radiance or Eye Of The Beholder (both SSI Gold Boxes, I think), then afterwards going through his Monster Manual (he had the bulk of the 3-hole-punched contents, and the binder proper) and his Rifts and Palladium Fantasy books with him, and I don't think we ever gave a lot of credence to thinking, at least in those days, to RPGs being pushed aside by many newer players today. But there was never any confusion that we were playing an SSI Gold Box RPG or that we were playing Rifts or Werewolf: the Apocalypse; individually, I mean. We never expected there to be such a difference in what RPGs were and how they were seen twenty-five years later.


I didn't detect that tone. And I am that old guy. The one that thinks Gygax era D&D is superior to Hasbro's.for no other reason than being an elitist geek. A game only needs and geeks could play because for the most part no one else was capable or interested in the math.
I don't think the economy of the last 8 years helped with disposable incomes either. Maybe the following 4... 3.xx years will see an increase in income and an increase in escapism. Now how do we convince all those console kiddies that pen and paper are fun too?


I'm glad for that, and I'm pleased to be another old soldier (although I suspect of more recent vintage than your own) on the field. The first D&D books I had of my own were early 2nd Ed. AD&D; I think my brother gave me the Player's Handbook and I eventually found the DMG and one or two others at a used bookstore a number of years later. I took a chance on the D&D 3.5 PHB at one of the last conventions I attended before the Great Delay, and while it looked good, I felt like there was a certain over-edited quality to the work, the writing style, the nearly photorealistic colour pictures, that was lacking (at least in a way that I found significant) in it compared to the TSR era books; like they were just daring an imperfection to rear its head. Like WOTC was terrified of getting something wrong. Even Dragon Magazine, of all things, seemed to change thus after WOTC took up the reins.

I don't have any issues (no pun intended) with putting together a tabletop RPG of any sort that has a legacy and a fanbase to maintain and recruit; I just don't agree with how modern D&D has gone about it. Palladium, on the other hand, has been comfortable maintaining a conceptual mood that hasn't really changed as long as my memory can recall; it never needed to change. New writers and artists would put their own style and handiwork in place, but Rifts didn't change, Palladium Fantasy didn't change; they stayed true to the same 'mission statement', as far as I can define it as a longtime fan and player, and I'm quite sure it's why I've never gotten tired of being a player and a bannerman for Kevin & Company.

-Boe.

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:15 am
  

User avatar
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 4032
Location: Cuba, MO USA
Comment: The Emolancer
My day job (evenings actually, 3-11PM) is in assisted living, so I work out of a house. This house is in a college town and the house next door is rental property that's been empty for over a year. A couple of weeks ago some students moved in, and several times when I've gone out to get something out of my car later in the evening they've been hanging out on the porch talking.

Two nights ago I overheard one of them say "..first level fireball spell that does 2D10." I had to see what that was about so I went over and questioned what system would allow such a power move. One immediately commented "Only in Rolla Missouri can a random passer-by hear you talking D&D and know what it's about."

Yeah, they play 5e, but when they asked if I played and I said Palladium, they hadn't heard of it. When I said Rifts one said "Oh, that's that game Spencer was talking about, the one he loves the art for!" After chatting for a bit I told them I'd bring an extra copy of RUE for them to look at and see if they were interested in me running a game for them.

Yesterday I went by again and met Spencer. He was raised playing Rifts, and hit one key nail on the head. "If you don't have an old-school gamer to introduce you to the system, it's difficult to get into it. The settings are awesome but the rules are difficult to learn."

That's not an insult to the system, it's a window into the changes our society has gone through. Us geezers can go out of our way to bring new blood into the fold, but I think it's about time we streamlined the rules to bring them in in droves..

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:41 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 12486
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
And Mike and I, are actually in agreement. A rare thing indeed.

Edit - well at least about streamlining the rules.

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:31 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 384
Location: Woodbridge, VA USA (S of Wash DC)
jaymz wrote:
Actually...in the last year or so they have been slowly and finally putting out their back catalogue as PDFs on DriveThruRPG...though a little too late for it to really mean anything if you ask me.


AMEN.

I have most of their backstock as both hard copy, and pirated e-copy.
I've been in the process over the past couple years, of re-purchasing books (that largely are in good to excellent condition for being first printings).

Right now, I'm steamed that

1. it's taken so long for the "Core" Rifts books (RUE, GMG, BoM) to come out
2. New stuff that we know darn well are 100% digitally submitted & laid out, aren't available between 1-6 months post hard copy release
3. Their support of non Rifts & Dead Reign is laughable. Why haven't at least the Main book & the newer (aka, digitally submitted/written) Fantasy books been released?

Like another poster in this thread - I can't have a bunch of paper books, though for a slightly different reason.
I'm moving this summer; I will not have room for a bunch of books. I am planning to size down to 3 shelves from my current 7. And the only reason for about 2 of them, is that even though many Rifts books are available (and in many cases, I've re-purchased) in e-form from DriveThru.... they're old enough that my brain just doesn't seem to like Electrons vs Paper when hunting. I can find stuff in the older books (Book 20/Canada & older) faster in paper than electronic.

Now I'm wondering how the heck I'm gonna get rid of my books, since no one seems to want them these days.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:59 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:10 pm
  

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MADMANMIKE wrote:
That's not an insult to the system, it's a window into the changes our society has gone through. Us geezers can go out of our way to bring new blood into the fold, but I think it's about time we streamlined the rules to bring them in in droves..


These days, my game of choice is Hackmaster (I'm running Castles and Crusades, but that's because my wife really doesn't like Hackmaster). While Hackmaster (and the new Aces and Eights) are complex games with a lot of moving parts, they also mirror a lot of house rules I've talked about for Palladium Fantasy (e.g. armor as damage reduction), with some innovations I never considered (their way of handling opposed rolls is better than my "higher successful", which is better than the common "lowest possible", IMO).

However, overhauling the system would be a massive amount of work, and wouldn't solve a lot of the other problems Palladium has... perception being one of them.

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:17 am
  

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I also think that RPGs in general don't attract the old core audience (nerds/geeks) because theyve been dumbed down. I speak of the gatway game D&D. It used to require more brains because ths system was convoluted (far worse than PB). I see it like when I was a fame tester on a certain Flight simulator that had the word simulator removed. Their plan was to appeal to the casual gamer while not alienating the core audience. They didn't make it interesting enough for the casual gamer and they dumbed the controls down too much to appeal to the core audience. They managed to fail at both. So, back to RPGs, we've got the largest advertised game system having lost most of its clique appeal and to the "casual gamer" a poor substitute for a videogame. Maybe ON needs to put ads out in comics. The other problem, at least in King County, WA is that none of the game shops carry PB RPG products (I say it that way 'cuz one carries the RT mini game).

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Unread postPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:24 am
  

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MADMANMIKE wrote:
My day job (evenings actually, 3-11PM) is in assisted living, so I work out of a house. This house is in a college town and the house next door is rental property that's been empty for over a year. A couple of weeks ago some students moved in, and several times when I've gone out to get something out of my car later in the evening they've been hanging out on the porch talking.

Two nights ago I overheard one of them say "..first level fireball spell that does 2D10." I had to see what that was about so I went over and questioned what system would allow such a power move. One immediately commented "Only in Rolla Missouri can a random passer-by hear you talking D&D and know what it's about."

Yeah, they play 5e, but when they asked if I played and I said Palladium, they hadn't heard of it. When I said Rifts one said "Oh, that's that game Spencer was talking about, the one he loves the art for!" After chatting for a bit I told them I'd bring an extra copy of RUE for them to look at and see if they were interested in me running a game for them.

Yesterday I went by again and met Spencer. He was raised playing Rifts, and hit one key nail on the head. "If you don't have an old-school gamer to introduce you to the system, it's difficult to get into it. The settings are awesome but the rules are difficult to learn."

That's not an insult to the system, it's a window into the changes our society has gone through. Us geezers can go out of our way to bring new blood into the fold, but I think it's about time we streamlined the rules to bring them in in droves..


Bah, that's what the SW Rifts is for. It's like why would I want to play Dreampark instead of Teenagers from Outerspace? Now you kids get off my lawn.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:37 am
  

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Has anyone converted a group to Savage Rifts who previously would not play Palladium Rifts?


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:14 am
  

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Spinachcat wrote:
Has anyone converted a group to Savage Rifts who previously would not play Palladium Rifts?

Is it really converting if they never played the other?

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:21 am
  

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Spinachcat wrote:
Has anyone converted a group to Savage Rifts who previously would not play Palladium Rifts?

Is it really converting if they never played the other?


It's converting the players to the Rifts fans.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:33 am
  

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Zer0 Kay wrote:
Is it really converting if they never played the other?


The "I won't play PB games" people are generally ex-PB players, or people who knew a PB player, or people who read about PB games on a forum. Many of these people know the general concepts of the system (D20 attack, D100 skills, points for powers, no balance in chargen, etc).

That's the type of player I'm asking about.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:17 pm
  

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Hello,

From my own limited perspective, I don't think Palladium's rules are difficult to learn. Robotech was the first RPG I played and I found the rules easy to learn. I didn't have too much help from the GM either and he'd started using Palladium's rules with TMNT a few months before. But he was a gamer and could play and GM lots of games, so maybe that helped? Still, I haven't managed to learn how to play D&D and I think I drove one person insane trying to teach me A Time of War. I liked playing the old WestEndGames Star Wars game but had zero interest when it went to D20. Part of that was the rules were just too confusing. The other part was the price. Which I'll get back to.

I also don't think that the rules need to be changed or dumbed down any. I think it's a great advantage that the rules have stayed mostly the same for so long. That means old books are still playable with the new ones. Lots of other games that change their rules lose that. There may be a great book/module you want to use but the rules aren't compatible with your rule book. There's also the whole division of fandom over which edition is better.

I do think that the rules could be better organized though. One book has things ordered one way, another has them another. I'm used to it but I can see it being a problem for new players.

I can't say that I'm in favor of exclusive skills. People can learn all kinds of things if they have a teacher. Some skills can ever be self taught. What I can see is that Character having higher bonuses for their knowledge and experience.

I'm also not in favor of reducing the number of skills. I happen to think we need more and that the number of additional skills is overly restricting. I also think that reducing skills is the same as dumbing down the game. I think Palladium's gotten better as more skills have been added. They've added to the realism of the game not taken away.

Now I'll get back to cost. Palladium has done a lot to keep their costs down. Other games have gotten so expensive they've priced me right out of playing them. Unfortunately, it's why I haven't bought Robotech Tactics. I'd love to but I don't have that kind of money to plunk down. And RT is a lot less expensive than other games.

There's also the new and shiny. I personally don't care for the glossy multi-colored pages. They don't really add anything to the book. They're just new and shiny. Some color pages are okay. Rifts RPG has some but mostly it just ends up being a higher price tag.
Unfortunately that tends to reflect a lot of people these days. The product could be terrible but they'll love it because it's new and shiny. I'd prefer more substance and value for my dollar.

Also with glossy pages I also can't pencil in corrections or add notes in the margins and if I need to copy or print something I end up having to read black on grey which isn't easy. I suppose that's not a concern for most but it is for me. The more papers I have to stuff into the book the sooner it falls apart.

As far as things others have said, I agree more advertising would be good. Allowing people to have web pages would too. There used to be tons of fan pages. There even used to be a list on the website and there were lots more that weren't on it. Now most seem to be gone. That's sad and not good for Palladium. With more and more people doing things online, that needs to change.

That's all I've got for now. Hopefully I didn't bore you all too much.

Happy gaming!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:40 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:47 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
Sambot - you are welcome to pm me about pb sites.


Thank you. :)


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:10 am
  

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I was introduced in the mid 1980s to D&D (I don't remember if it was AD&D or Red box), but I didn't like it. I collected G.I. Joe comics and in one of them was a full color Robotech RPG ad. I got my mom to send a check in the mail (didn't know FLGS were a thing) and dove in. There was a definite connection between D&D and Robotech rules. I actually got D&D red box and some adventures (both AD&D and D&D, because to me they were easy to convert. And even had a couple RT/D&D crossovers. Then I found Palladium Fantasy (1st) and it 'fixed' everything to me that D&D got 'wrong'.
But here's the thing, I know I imported rules from D&D to Palladium Systems. There were certain "assumptions" that I made based off my knowledge of D&D, that were not actually in the rules of Palladium Books. Killer Cyborg got it right in that every group made their own assumptions, which to them was common sense, but didn't always mesh well with another group's common sense. I was the GM and introducer of PB games to my group, so they learned and played based off my D&D assumptions. But when the internet and early electronic bulletin boards/email groups were formed I couldn't imagine all the "wrong" ideas people had out there. Was Carpet of Adhesion a fixed "plane" that could not be moved? was it like fly paper, stuck to the ground, but could be lifted, with dirt stuck to the other side? could it be rolled up, like a carpet and unfolded as needed? Certain things are vague and purposefully so, so each Gm can tailor make their own world, but in an interconnected internet age, people want consistency and want to rage argue against opposing views.

Somewhere along the way D&D changed a lot (3rd ed?) and Palladium Fantasy 2nd deviated enough that they didn't cooperate as nicely as before. Maybe not having an almost compatible "D&D" for the first person to put those assumptions in hurts PB games. There is a disconnect between we, the old grognards, who learned PB in 1980s middle-school after playing that almost compatible D&D "know' the rules (and those who learned from us) and find it easy to teach those young-uns and the young 2010s middle-schooler who opens a PB book, so far removed from D&D 5e, that those core assumptions to fill-in the blanks of the PB ruleset are not there. So they have a choice. They can open D&D 5e, or Pathfinder, etc. and play with a complete ruleset, or they can work and trudge through a PB ruleset that has gaps.

In the 80s it was only the Atari 2600/Nintendo and riding bikes vying for my time. I had time to sit and think and link D&D to PBFRPG
In the 90s it was Super Nintendo/ PlayStation, Basic computer games and MUDs (text based MMOs) vying for my time. I could sit and think and read PB
In the 00s I had a job, MMOs (an easy entrance into an RPG-like adventure), XBOX, PlayStation2-3 , Nintendo 64-gamecube, more "realistic" computer games. I had trouble sitting and thinking and reading PB
In the 10s, I have a job, a marriage, a house, all which require time and upkeep. I love to GM, but I can't just pull adventures out of thin air, like I could before, because even my daydreams of rules and adventures have changed into "what is my next project for the house? Am I on track for my 20 cases a month?" etc. etc.

Sadly, at 43, I just do not have the time anymore.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:28 pm
  

D-Bee

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Hello all.

I have tried 15 different LGS and they all say one thing "Our suppliers do not stock Palladium Books as they do not sell. Maybe, and just maybe, I can special order one to you, but I can not promise if and when in the case, that you would get it. When it comes to Palladium Books, you should see on Amazon.com"

Last saturday, I took my ld Rofts books to the local game place (It is a coffeeshop for gamers) and they always have 1-3 tables where whole groups are playing and looked around. Out of 16 people, 1 had heard of Rifts and the comments were not possitive of the game. When it came to the words about Palladium Books some people asked me if that was the company that screwed its kickstarter backers with Robotech game.

I have leared that there were two groups in this town that used to play Rifts. One group seemed to have loved it because they could abuse the system so easily to get ubercharacters and the other group split after they got their collage degrees and a few lives here but have moved to other games as they saw no future for Rifts.

Anyhow, when I look at the RUE/RIFTS book and compare it to other games, it strikes me as quite dull and rather hard to see a streamlined logic where to find things. For example, Look at games like: A Song of Ice and Fire, Into the Loop, Pathfinder, A time of War (Battletech): They have moved away from Black&White with full color books and arts. palladium Books still look like the old 70's, 80's and early 90's RPGs. They look boring to flip through.

In the RUE/Rifts, there are no monsters (pictures or text) no races (in RUE you can play three races: Humans, Dogboy and Psi-Stalker) and it feels like D&D 1st edition where you could play warrior, Mage, Thief, Cleric, Elf and Dwarf. There were nothing like an Elf Cleric or Dwarf Mage. A dwarf was a warf and nothing else.

RUE is beautiful with the color pictures in the middle, but it is not enough.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:59 pm
  

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Yup, I am back.

Just logged in to see what has happened and to my surprise is that there are one of two new books to Rifts since 2015. Thats awesome for Paladium Books and the Rifts Line.

When it comes to the reason of this thread; What do I think keeps people from getting into the various games from Palladium Books?
First I can only speak of Rifts as this is the only game i have played.


    * I believe that many people feel that the book is unispiring when they flip through the pages if they happen to find a book in a FLGS; compared to RPGS like Pathfinder, Anima, Into the Loop, Western and D&D 4-5 and other modern games, PB's books feel a bit dull with black and white pages with the same type of art that was used in the 80's. I rather look at a RPG book where the art is pretty and inspires me to dream into the world than have 1980-ish art recycled after 30 years.

    * Most modern are helpful to the GM with Monster books with fully statted monsters, where the monsters are in full color, easily put into the game, whereas Rifts have monster templates that the GM need to roll up before as you need to roll all stats and stuff and check all attriute bonuses per each monster which takes a lot of time to either repare of roll up on a fly.

    * I think Rifts is the only RPG where there is not a set of books like Mainbook, Players Guide and/or GM guide. Instead we have a all-in-all book that speaks of other races and d-bees you can play but the only 4 things you can play are. Humans, psi stalkers, dogboys and dragons. It feels as if something is missing.

    * Many games like Pathfinder, Traveller and so on have huge OGL sites on the net where you can easily get all rules, races, bonuses, skills feats, weapons totally legal and the game still sells. PB have actually shot down all tries of this in the past. The RPG gaming world is more focused on internet based information and if a game is unwilling to help its players & GM with that, then that game suffers.

    * Rifts has a very bad reputation for catering to munchkins/Power gamers.

    * Rifts has had a very bad reputation online for bad rules (which not even the ccreator cares to use).

    * Whatever support it had in Europe before the game has lost this market. It is really hard to find a FLGS that either knows that Rifts is still an RPG that has books published or have suppliers that deal with Palladium Books. With games like Pathfinder, Aima, Into the Loop, Coreolis, FFG Star Wars, Warhammer 40K (what it is called as RPG) and even A Time of War (Battletech RPG) or the One Ring, Rifts is seen like a has-been RP that was part of the birth of RPGs, but is a relic now.

    * I usually go to gaming conventions in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Spain every year and a few in UK if I can get the time. None of these conventions the last years has had any PB games either as running games or games that people played for fun. You could buy books in teh Convention Stores, but these were i teh "Trash ox" and were usually sold for £1-2 or 1-2 Euro.


I love the world of Rifts, I think Kevin's world that he creayted is so awesome. It inspires people to Love Coalition states, Hate the Coalition states with the light of a 1000 suns, Love Erin Tarn or hate the old nag. People still speaks here on the forums on games they played in the 80's and 90's when they fought the apocalypse riders in africa or tfought in the Tolkeen war. Kevin has made a world in Rifts that is truely awesome, and still makes people post here complaining to other posters that they are CS fambois or Tolkeen rednecks or whatnot. This would not have been possble without Kevin's vision.

I still hate the MDC system and the bad layout in RUE. I will still complain that things like cactus or onion people should be chased sown by all nations and made into a giant stew that would feed the poor people of Rifts america...but then again, in my world the onion people were eaten ages ago on their homeworld by an aggresive vegitarian race that invaded planet onion.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:12 pm
  

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Welcome back!

Excellent points that you made.

Even though I find some of the artwork in Pathfinder a little too "cartoony" (the examples of the races) I still prefer seeing nice colour photos for things.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:56 pm
  

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